Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue

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dlipter

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Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« on: 23 Sep 2009, 09:39 pm »
Does the use of a pneumatic nailer & glue obviate the need for clamping?

A local builder (Zalytron) uses nails & glue...no need for clamps according to him.

What kind of nailer do you guys recommend?

I found Hitachi, Porta Cable, and Milwaukee nailers at Amazon.... all 18 ga brad nailers. They all seem to be good tools.

What do you use....  2" nails for 3/4 MDF butt joints?

What kind of glue?

Thanks, 

dlipter

richidoo

Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #1 on: 23 Sep 2009, 11:14 pm »
I use Ridgid stapler (R150FSA) with 1-1/4" Porter Cable glue coated staples. 100psi sticks them in firm and easy and if you make a mistake it is hell to get those suckers out from MDF. Combined with Titebond 1 it makes a very strong clampless bond. The stapler can be set to sink the head a little, then a little sanding is ready for veneer, or fill for paint.

Some difficult joints may need more staples, especially in softwood. But MDF grips very strong.  I own a few Ridgid tools, satisfied so far.

There's plenty of times when clamps are better though.

dlipter

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Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #2 on: 24 Sep 2009, 12:07 am »
Do you think staples are better (stronger) than brads?

Staples do make a bigger hole but maybe they grip better than brads.

However brads might be easier to hide under a painted finish.

richidoo

Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #3 on: 24 Sep 2009, 12:15 am »
These staples have a coating that makes them not removable, like glue? And maybe two pins is better than one.  But I never tried brad nailer, the one is enough for me.
Finishing mdf is a special chore no matter what.

BrianH

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Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #4 on: 24 Sep 2009, 04:54 pm »
IMO nails/brads/screws,clamps all serve the same purpose, hold things together until the glue dries. The strength comes from the glue joint. This is especially true of materials like mdf which have no real holding power with screws or nails anyway. The material itself has no strength in a small area like where a nail or screw is.

Look at this article to better understand what I am trying to get across:

http://www.partsexpress.com/Tech/300-704.html

Please pay attention that all this is specific to mdf. Other materials have their own characteristics.

Its also worthwhile to read up a bit about what is important in fitting a particular type of glue joint for whatever material you are using.

For mdf making sure that I have a flat contact surface with minimal glue in the joint works best. That is because I believe that the actual glue itself has no strength either. :)

For Elmers/Titebond glues they are chemically the same PVA but have different open times, clean up and water resistance. The various flavours I, II, III are about those differences not holding power. A lot of newer users benefit from long working times so keep that in mind (Elmers has pretty long working times).

So read the labels about that and choose whatever makes a difference in your area. In effect what works good in Arizona doesn't tell you anything about what works best in Seattle.

Gorrilla glue and the like are an entirely different glue with different characteristics. I would suggest staying away from them unless you know exactly why you need it.

When you are putting this all together dry fit it all. Know what and how you are going to do it before you get wet glue all over. :)

Food for thought anyway, we all have different experiences and opinions however,
Brian

richidoo

Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #5 on: 24 Sep 2009, 04:58 pm »
Just let the glue soak in for a minute before you decide to wipe any excess off. MDF edges will suck all the wet glue out of the joint.

EARGASM

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Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #6 on: 24 Sep 2009, 05:46 pm »
Removed by member.
« Last Edit: 25 Sep 2009, 03:09 pm by EARGASM »

dvenardos

Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #7 on: 24 Sep 2009, 05:50 pm »
Interesting thread. So, the main reason for using clamps instead of nails is that you don't have to mess with filling all the tiny holes from the countersunk nails?  :scratch:

EARGASM

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Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #8 on: 24 Sep 2009, 05:55 pm »
Removed by member.
« Last Edit: 25 Sep 2009, 03:09 pm by EARGASM »

JimJ

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Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #9 on: 24 Sep 2009, 05:59 pm »
All clamps can be done...



But I wouldn't recommend it to anyone :D Took way too long...I ended up using brads for the trim pieces, filling in the holes and sanding wasn't too bad.

Hank

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Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #10 on: 25 Sep 2009, 12:23 pm »
For 30+ years of speaker building, I only used screws on the first pair - never again!  They are a waste of time and money.  I use plenty of clamps and have never had a joint fail.  For tower/heavy cabinets, I use my pneumatic brad nailer to hold parts in alignment (not for joint strength)  while I apply clamps

BrianH

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Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #11 on: 26 Sep 2009, 01:21 am »
Interesting thread. So, the main reason for using clamps instead of nails is that you don't have to mess with filling all the tiny holes from the countersunk nails?  :scratch:

I don't think anyone is meaning to say that at all. As in ... filling the holes doesn't count at all, one way or another. :)

Glue joints are what you want for mdf.  No screw or nail  made will provide a good solid joint in mdf, its not the screw thats the problem, its the mdf. As someone said they have made a screw for mdf thats only just lousy rather than totally crappy, it still has no strength. The way it gets a little better is that the threads are farther apart giving a little more of the mdf between the threads. imo it still sucks and certainly is not "new".

If you have ever had one of those particle board pieces of furniture I would be very surprised if it didn't have a problem at a screw joint unless you glued the whole thing anyway. That is what I am referring to with mdf. The technical reason is very simple, there are no "long" fibers in mdf. Think of it like cement without rebar.  But mdf has good sound characteristics for building speakers with the added benefit that its inexpensive.

So you need at least two, flat, somewhat porous surfaces to mate with glue for a strong joint. The glue actually sinks into the mdf a little ways, and after curing the mdf doesnt really know where the joint was at all. Its strong because any load, pressure, shear whatever you want to call it is so spread out no one part of the mdf is any weaker than any other. I know of some folks that actually predampen the mdf before glueing so the glue sinks in a little further. There is nothing wrong with damp washing the fine dust off anyway! Thats another way to do the same thing richidoo is saying about letting it soak in.

But what you can achieve is that all the mdf, joint included, has the same strength. Once you have everything all put together, sanded, corners shaped or whatever you want to do, I recommend you then put sanding sealer or something similar all over every surface of the bare mdf. That will do two things, harden the surface a bit more so it will take the finish better, and it will provide a moisture barrier.

The part express article does not disagree with what I am saying, but they show you how you might use nails or screws to make sure everything fits. And not spend a lot of money on clamps.  I made the assumption from the question that this was for a completely novice woodworker. The parts express article is allowing for the most common problem I too have encountered, is that things don't fit the way you want them to, and you don't notice until the glue is wet.

PE is showing how to use screws or nails to make sure it all goes together dry, but they still describe gluing it all.  I did not mention their preference for gorilla glue over carpenters glue, all I can assume is that they have talked to enough new builders to warrant that preference. However ... Most people in this forum including myself prefer carpenters glue but either will work fine. If you wonder about yellow vs white glue, yellow was made for woodworking especially and is a little bit more moisture tolerant. Otherwise its generally considered the same.

Polyurethene glue(Gorilla) does have one negative attribute. Its quite a bit more expensive and the joint won't be any better when you are done. I myself think yellow glue is easier to clean up. Beware that Gorilla glue has its own problems for you to deal with, you really must practice glue some scrap with it so you learn how much to use. It expands a lot more than you would expect it to, and it takes time for it to expand completely.

So to be clear when I say yellow glue or carpenters glue I mean yellow glue, white glue, aliphatic resin, and pva.

The glue joint will last and be strong if you are careful to do it properly. How you hold the pieces till it dries doesn't really matter, you can take the nails and screws all out after the glue dries annd it won't make any difference. The important thing I think is recognize mdf for what it is and work with it accordingly. Theres many articles scientific and otherwise discussing the structural qualities of almost every material you can think of including mdf. Or you also have a bunch of opinions from a variety of people with experience trying to help out here. Thats whats nice about Dannys forum lots of experience here.

Brian

BrianH

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Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #12 on: 26 Sep 2009, 01:21 am »
Oops sorry that was so long but I got on a roll. :)

dlipter

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Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #13 on: 26 Sep 2009, 03:24 am »
Don't be sorry Brian....your post is more than welcome.

Ok......screws are out.

I began cutting MDF today for a pair of N3's and I found that the MDF cut like butter on my radial arm saw ripping the long pieces.

I'm going to pick up an nail gun for 18ga brads.

So the question is.......Will I need clamps, or are brads & glue enough.

I simply don't want to spend the money on clamps as good ones are quite expensive.

dlipter

richidoo

Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #14 on: 26 Sep 2009, 03:45 am »
Clamps are forever, a man's diamond. They are also cheaper than prebuilt speakers.  Even with staples, I still use clamps too. Each has its place, Staples  or brads can never squeze a joint closed for precision and strength. The orange bar clamps at home depot are pretty good, shown in Jim's picture. They have wooden twist handles. I have some quik grip clamps too, but they don't have as much power as a screw clamp.

JimJ

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Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #15 on: 26 Sep 2009, 04:07 am »
You can really never have enough :)


BrianH

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Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #16 on: 26 Sep 2009, 04:59 am »
Get cheap clamps and use scrap wood between the clamp face and your mdf.  No surface marring, its a great habit to get into anyway.

If you have any doubts about slopping glue around the clamping pieces good old saran wrap will keep things from sticking together that are not supposed to stick. If you have a larger bottle of yellow glue but don't want to get much out at one time, I take a small piece of renolds wrap and make a little painting tray.  Then I spread the yellow glue with the cheapest foam brushes I can find and throw them away when I am done.  If you are glueing in multiple sessions, use another piece of saran wrap to keep your wet glue brush in (so it doesn't dry out) while you work.

Its really a problem here in Arizona where anything wet dries very fast. Its hard for example to get the glue on the edge of a longer board because the beginning is drying before I can get to the other end.

I also forgot to mention a trick for alignment when glueing.  Dowels. They work good in mdf. I love dowels. They can really let you get along with very few clamps if you want.

Clamp two pieces the way you want.  Then drill a couple dowel size holes for alignment.  Then set those pieces aside and do another two pieces. WHen you are ready for final assembly and glueing just apply the glue to the edges, insert dowels in the predrilled holes to align, repeat on all the parts you are glueing at once.   Then you can just use weights if you want to apply even pressure while the glue sets.  Hopefully you get a mental picture of that.

An inexpensive investment to really bring doweling to an art form is a set of dowel centers. A little pressure and they give you precisely the point opposite the dowel hole. Rocklers etc has them.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=859&filter=dowel%20center

dvenardos

Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #17 on: 26 Sep 2009, 05:50 am »
This is what I meant.

How you hold the pieces till it dries doesn't really matter, ...

dlipter

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Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #18 on: 26 Sep 2009, 06:06 am »
Ok...... Ok!

I get it.

Looks like I'll be buying clamps.

 :green:

dlipter

playntheblues

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Re: Enclosures, Air Nailers, Clamps & Glue
« Reply #19 on: 26 Sep 2009, 11:34 am »
Here is a little secret that was shared with me.  If you buy a couple of bicycle inner tubes at Wal-Mart, stretch them around your speaker and tie a bow or quick release knot.  You can also cut the tubes in half so you can have to ties per tube.  I did this with my bass reflex cabs I built for my P-Audio speakers and it worked like a charm.  Hope this helps and saves you a little money.
Kind Regards.