[orientalexpress]

pick one of each classical,Jazz,vocal,metal,classic rock.Thanks

[BobM]

classical: none

Jazz: Ray Brown - Soular Energy, Ritenour/Grusin - Harlequin, Pat Metheny - As Falls Wichita

Vocal: Joni Mitchell - Hejira

Metal: (more proggy) Brand X - Moroccan Roll

Rock: Dire Straits - Making Movies, Alan Parsons - I Robot

Electronic: Philippe Saisse - Valerian

World: Andreas Vollenweider - Caverna Magica, Oregon - Moon and Mind

[Wayner]

Bob, you like Picture's at an Exhibition by Emerson, Lake and Palmer don't you? (use that as your classical reference  ).

Wayner 

[analognut]

I guess I must be missing the whole point here because I've learned over the years that when a system is tuned properly that very nearly everything you play sounds right. My first experience with this was years ago buying JL Audio car stereo amps, subs, and speakers. The JL monoblock amp had more controls on it than I thought possible to put on an amp. I had my system set up in an 18-wheeler. Had it hot-wired directly to the 4 12v batteries with 13' of "0" gage wire for positive, and the same for negative. Prior to getting that setup I was constantly fiddling with the tone controls every time I played a CD, but after I learned how to adjust the JL equipment I hit a point where everything just snapped into focus and from that point onwards I almost NEVER had to make adjustments, no matter what I played. I am now experiencing this same phenomena with my vinyl. As I continue to learn about vinyl and am actively working at getting the sound right, I find more and more LPs sound just right and require no tweaks to the setup.

So now, when I listen I try to discern what elements of the mix aren't coming through clearly or what elements might be over-emphasized, and attempt to remedy that without throwing anything else out of whack. I would have to say I don't have a reference for tuning the system.

And now, with the arrival of fall and the nippy mornings it looks like temperature of the TT/cart/vinyl is going to affect the sound also. I think the sound is a lot smoother when temps are in the mid 70's, as opposed to mid sixties, such as it was early this A.M.   

[Quiet Earth]

analognut,

I agree with the underlying theme of your post. It is similar to the "comparison by contrast" method in that everything sounds correct because you have not gone out of your way to make everything sound the same.

Just out of curiosity though . . .

I would have to say I don't have a reference for tuning the system.

What is your method for dialing in the best performance from your vinyl rig?

[analognut]

Hello Quiet Earth,

I would think the starting point has to be cart alignment. If alignment is not precise, then all other efforts are beside the point, no? TIP: If there is any noise coming from the stylus/groove point of contact that's a sure indicator that tracking could be improved! My TT sits at waist height in my play-room (refer to my gallery pics http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1786) and if I listen to an un-amplified record there is no noise whatsoever coming out of the grooves. I have to get my ear about 6" from the stylus before I start to hear anything. I did that little test when spinning Lynyrd Skynyrd (highly modulated grooves). IMHO the micro-line stylus of my OC9ML/II provides a closer match to the original shape of the cutter head than an elliptical would. Assuming I've aligned cart properly (and periodically check it just to make sure!) and have VTA & VTF in the correct range according to mfr recommendations, anti-skate set correctly, TT is level, I will now (try) to answer your question:

That's hard for me to answer. The Sota Star Sapphire vacuum table & SME V arm were purchased used. The 1st issue addressed was mechanical condition of the components. I determined the arm to be in excellent condition before the deal was finalized. My test records on the rig at the hi-fi shop didn't sound first-rate, so I knew the TT had a problem. Playing a 3150Hz tone from a test record revealed a "wow" on every rev of the platter. I tore it apart and spent 2 weeks trying to get the thing lubed correctly, hoping that was the only problem. The bearing sleeve had absolutely no play, the sapphire thrust plate looked good. So I tried lots of oil, tried minimal oiling, tried different oils, including what Sota uses at the factory, which is TufOil by the way. Go to tufoil.com for details, tufoil.net to purchase. The world's most efficient lubricant, according to The Guinness Book Of Records. Ended up sending the platter and bearing assembly back to Sota for complete rebuild. A new thrust plate fixed the wow. TIP: It seemed to take 100 hours or more for the bearing to "break in" because I noticed even better performance as time went on.

The last 4 or 5 months have been a process of having everything break in and getting used to the sound. AT-OC9ML/II was purchased new and it sounds different now after 207 hours than it did at 100 hours. Low-output MCs are new to me, so the whole idea of loading has been a learning experience. I've tried loads from 220ohm down to 21ohm. You can't do an A/B comparison in a few minutes. You make a change and maybe 2 weeks later you start to realize how it affected the sound using what you aptly termed "comparison by contrast". It took that long for me to realize that aside from the obvious difference in volume I could hear the difference between a 39ohm load and a 21ohm load. I had to learn what to listen for. I'd love to get opinions from readers regarding what load they use on the AT-OC9ML/II.

The damping on the SME V seems to be a big can of worms. With the Denon DL-103R I used the maximum amount of damping I had for the best sound. ATOC9ML/II is a different animal. Max damping seemed to choke the life out of the sound. For a long time I was using minimal damping with it. Now, at 207 hours I'm using zero damping for the best sound. It's sound is smoothing out, and damping only seems to veil the highs and restrict dynamics.

I've noticed that 0.25 gm of VTF makes a big difference in the sound of the high end (more easily observed on some mixes than others). I suppose this is because a small change in VTF has a large influence on SRA, much more than changing VTA does. My understanding is it takes a 4mm change in arm height at the post to affect a 0.5 degree change in SRA. I listen for triangle sounds and low-volume cymbal hits. It's easy to tell if a triangle is too bright, and if low-volume cymbals don't punch through it tells me the sound might not be bright enough. My rig tracks the +18db torture track of the Hi-Fi News test record at any VTF (in AT's recommended range), so I have the option to decrease tracking force a little bit, thereby increasing SRA if a record sounds too smooth, and vice-versa. I think your "comparison by contrast" is the only way to ultimately determine what the best VTF is. Even though our LPs were cut with differing SRA's, hopefully a person can arrive at a point where the bulk of the collection sounds right.

I don't have a method, unless it'd be the points above which I set in Bold. I don't often play with arm height (VTA) anymore. I leave it level and change tracking force if I need to affect an SRA. AT-OC9ML/II seems to sound best at 207 hours with zero arm damping, so I don't need to fiddle with that anymore. (OK, I lied. I still fiddle with it). I don't know what the ideal load is. I used 39 ohms for maybe a month. Now I am back to 21 ohms. I do your "comparison by contrast", and gradually things seem to be coming together towards the ideal setting.

Now that the cooler mornings have arrived there seems to be a whole 'nother issue I'm going to need to look at! If I had to bet on it I'd say there is a definite difference in the sound of the rig when the temperature is in the mid 60's, as opposed to the mid 70's! Smoother, warmer sound when the rig is warm. Whatever the case may be, it gives me a way to get my kicks- play around and have fun!   

[Quiet Earth]

Excellent post analognut. Thanks for the pile of information. It would seem that you do indeed have a method. It sounds like you are listening carefully to lots of music and trying to make small improvements over a very extended amount of time. That's more or less my style too. (I don't like the idea of betting the farm on a couple of test tracks.) Plus, you have a test record. Maybe I should also get one to better understand the non-musical related anomolies and tracking errors. Food for thought anyway.

I'm going to start thinking more seriously about the quote from your other post regarding un-amplified cartridge sound. You said, "If you hear noise coming from the vinyl it means that tracking can be improved". I had never really thought about this before. I will pay more attention to it in the future.

[Wayner]

That is not what Bob is referring to. He is suggesting superior recordings done by excellent musicians, recorded in a very excellent way. You certainly can't suggest that all recordings sound the same? That would be a slap in the face to MOFI and others who make extra effort to make high quality, high resolution audiophile type recordings. I have plenty of examples on either side.

Wayner

[BobM]

I used to just have one or two recordings that I knew well enough to use as references whenever I made a tweak or a change or a replacement in the system. I still use several of these (see my list above).

But I have found that what sounds good on a simple piece of music often doesn't sound good on a complex piece of music. Perhaps it's added (or missing) dynamics, perhaps its congestion to to more musical complexity or instrumentation, perhaps it's vocal sibilences, acoustic vs electronic anomalies, perhaps many other things. You can't set things up and judge them with only one type of music, so I shake it up a bit over time and then decide if it warrants any additional tweaking or adjustment or not (it usually does).

I think that was the spirit of this thread - what recordings do you use for your setup to find out if you've got it right or not.

[Quiet Earth]

You certainly can't suggest that all recordings sound the same?

That's exactly right Wayner.  The problem with coming up with a short list of "reference recordings" is that you will want everything to sound a certain way. When that happens, you are more likely to get a bland and boring sound from your system rather than a diverse sound. This article can explain it better than I can:  http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0601/audiohell.htm

[Wayner]

Out of everyone's collection, there is usually a hand full of recordings that always hit the dinner bell. If the system fails on those recordings, something is wrong. Then the average will sound belowe average and the bad will sound downright crappy. Bell curve stuff, ya know.

I think we all look (or I mean listen) for different things. That is why these kinds of topics usually bring out some differing points of view, because there is no common frame of reference. Your idea of a "reference recording" might be rap, and I can't stand the shit, so that will never be my reference recording. These are recordings that have made it thru several rounds of elimination. First, the band is great in the listener's mind. Second, the listener identifies him/herself with the recording, probably because of upbringing, life experiences, or some other reason, third, the recording engineer knew what he was doing and at least 4th, you agreed with the whole equation. That is a reference recording. You know how it goes, you know it's sonic signature and you have an expectation of how it should sound or if not that, how it should make you feel or how it plays with your emotions.

Also many forget that our wonderful ears are connected to a very complicated, emotional brain in which today's reference recording could be tomorrow's clay pigeon or Frisbee. We all have expectations of how our systems are supposed to sound, at least in our own minds, and when that doesn't happen, the world is out of kilter. After hours and hours or days and days of fussing (and something like the humidity changes) all is once again as it should be and our wonderful "reference recordings" take there privileged place on the glorious vinyl shelf. The CDs stare with envy, as only a very few of those will do.

[Quiet Earth]

Yep. Totally understand what you're sayin'.  Can't argue with any of your points either. Give the man an A+ 

Still,,,,,,,FWIW,,,,, I have discovered that when I make a real effort to let go of the reference comfort zone concept, I enjoy so much more of the music that I have accumulated. The stereo sounds better too. Cds and all. (No rap though, I just can't get into it yet. But I'll keep tryin'.  ) Also, I have learned that some of my old references are not really all that I thought they were when I put them up on the alter. BobM explained this much better a couple of posts up.

Anyway, I'm not sayin' this comparison by contrast is the right thing to do, I'm just sayin' it's worth considering as a data point. It seems to help me anyway.