[jsaliga]

I would like to compare listening notes with anyone else who might have this title.  Several people on another forum recommended it to me quite some time ago. But I have a number of complete Beethoven symphony cycles and didn't feel the need to add another.  But last week I found this on Amazon.com from a marketplace seller for $6.99, which is a pretty darned good price for a SACD.  So I bit and ordered it.



I gave this a listen yesterday and I must say that this is the most disappointing SACD I own.  The levels are down so low that I can't obtain satisfying SPLs even with my amp cranked way up.  So I tried the redbook layer and found the same thing.  Here is what the first movement of the 5th looks like in Adobe Audition 3.0.



Keep in mind that what you are seeing here is the loudest sections of the first movement.

I have several SACDs from BIS and I never before encountered anything remotely like this.  I was wondering if anyone else out there who owns this SACD had similar feelings about it.

--Jerome

[richidoo]

I have the entire cycle 1-9. The performances are awesome, few artistic liberties are taken, Beethovens true intention is so refreshing. The Minnesota Orchestra is America's finest.

I turn it up loud and have no problem. Or normalize it to -3dB or compress to taste.  I'll try to scan the whole disk to see the level of max peak, it should be -6dB optimally. Beethoven symphonies have gigantic dynamic range from loudest symphonic crescendo to quietest clarinet ppp solo, sometimes only a bar apart. It is spine tingling, but you need the gear with the dynamic range and very quiet room to get the most out of it.   If peak is -6, then quiet passages will be -60dB. Crank it, there's no noise other than the hall which is tasty.

If the peak is not -6dB then the explanation might be to have the same recording level for the entire cycle. The 9th finale gets pretty raucous.

[jsaliga]

Thanks for the response.  I'm listening to it now with my preamp dialed just about all the way up.  It is not distorting and my mono blocks have some headroom left in the tank.  The volume level is what I would consider to be just sufficient for an enjoyable listen.

I think I was just taken aback at how low the peak levels were and I was reluctant to crank my volume so high.

--Jerome

[richidoo]

What is the sensitivity of your speakers, and total gain of your pre and amps? 

My speakers are 90dB, total gain around 40dB, source typical 2V. That is more than enough to shake the walls.

I like your avatar. I gotta get that record again, Milestones, right?  I hocked it for a quarter back in 84. 

[jsaliga]

What is the sensitivity of your speakers, and total gain of your pre and amps? 

My speakers are at 93db sensitivity, but don't know about my amp and pre since those specs aren't available (they are custom built tube amps).

My speakers are 90dB, total gain around 40dB, source typical 2V. That is more than enough to shake the walls.

I can get high enough SPL with this recording...I just wasn't expecting to have to run my pre up to near max to get it.  I don't really mind that so long as the sound doesn't distort.  I have some older MFSL CDs with pretty low peak levels too...but not this low as I recall.  I'd have to check to be sure.

I like your avatar. I gotta get that record again, Milestones, right?  I hocked it for a quarter back in 84. 

Yep.  It's Milestones.

--Jerome

[richidoo]

I once took the BIS 9th to a friends house for a meet. I had to turn hisTact preamp up to 95/100 before it came to life. He was a little worried, but he understood that as long as electric guitars and rock drums didn't kick in, all would be fine.

Turning up the volume by itself won't make your amp distort. Only a hot signal and/or difficult load can increase distortion. If it doesn't sound too loud then it isn't. Simple as that. The gain stage of your preamp comes after the volume control so actually the more you turn up the volume, the better S/N ratio - best at max volume. You'll have less volume pot influence on the sound too.

I'm gonna try to find the 4&5 CD to scan it for peak level compared to the 9th CD which I know gets very loud.

How do you like the music on the 4&5?  I love the ballsy 5th especially, but the 4th has some good humor.

[jsaliga]

How do you like the music on the 4&5?  I love the ballsy 5th especially, but the 4th has some good humor.

I haven't listened to the 4th, but the 5th was great and I can see why it's so highly regarded.  I'll need to give it repeat listens in order to compare it with other performances that I know very well.  There aren't too many historic recordings that sound very good on CD IMO and good vinyl copies are hard to find.  Thankfully I have a number of them on 1/4" 4-track stereo tape that sound terrific (Szell, Klemperer, Steinberg, Toscanini, Boult, Karajan, and Walter to name a few).  And then there is Furtwangler, which I have on CD.  The sound is weak but everyone should hear it.  Beethoven's 5th is perhaps my favorite symphonic piece, followed closely by Brahms 3rd.

I enjoyed the Vanska enough to order the remaining SACDs in the cycle.

--Jerome

[richidoo]

That's cool!

I also like Munch/Boston's 5th on JVC XRCD. Compressed and lush, in sound and tempo but very fun as a complete work of art.

[Tyson]

The DSD Remaster of Szell sounds VERY good, almost on par with Vanska.  And the performance is quite a bit better, IMO.

A better modern alternative to Vanska is the latest Mackerras cycle with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra.  Outstanding sound, with performances to match.  The other modern cycle with great sound and great performances is the Paavo Jarvi.  Overall, I'd put Jarvi and Vanska at about the same overall level (very good), but the Mackerras a definite notch above (outstanding).

[ted_b]

The DSD Remaster of Szell sounds VERY good, almost on par with Vanska.  And the performance is quite a bit better, IMO.

A better modern alternative to Vanska is the latest Mackerras cycle with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra.  Outstanding sound, with performances to match.  The other modern cycle with great sound and great performances is the Paavo Jarvi.  Overall, I'd put Jarvi and Vanska at about the same overall level (very good), but the Mackerras a definite notch above (outstanding).

Tyson,
Is the Mackerras cycle the "Live from Edinburgh Festival" one?  I didn't realize it was available in hirez?  Where did you get it?  (The reason I ask is that the free Linn 24/192 download of the Mackerass/Scottish Beethoven Piano Concertos is killer!)  I agree that the Jarvi RCA Red Seal SACD's I've heard are very nice (I know NOTHING of the relative performances; I just know they sounded very good in multichannel).

Note: Folks, as you know this is the HiRez Circle.  I'm very glad we're keeping this to comparing hirez Beethoven cycles.  I realize it's almost impossible not to stray to other redbook or vinyl version faves, but let's keep that at a minimum.  Otherwise the classical circle would be the better venue for that.  Not meaning to be a jerk here; it's just that I promised the powers-that-be that I wouldn't steal from other discussion areas.

[jsaliga]

That's cool!

I also like Munch/Boston's 5th on JVC XRCD. Compressed and lush, in sound and tempo but very fun as a complete work of art.

That's been issued as a SACD by RCA, straight from the 3-track and it sounds quite good.  In fact, most -- though not all -- of the RCA Living Stereo reissues on SACD are winners.  Now if only RCA would reissue Fritz Reiner's Beethoven 5th on SACD I would be all set.



--Jerome

[PSP]

Hi Jerome,
You gotta listen to Vanska's treatment of the Beethoven 4th... it's extremely dynamic and one of my absolute favorite classical perofomances.  Be warned though, it opens at a whisper...

I've had no trouble getting highly realistic sound levels (and beyond!) using Linkwitz Orions, Aspen preamp and amps.

Peter

[richidoo]

Your Orions are gorgeous Peter.

Thanks for saving me with the SACD version of Munch Jerome.

[Tyson]

Apologies, I thought the Mackerras set had been issued in high rez. 

[PSP]

Hi richidoo,
Thanks!!  The finish is approx 6-8 coats of 1.5 pound cut garnet shellac (made from shellac flakes) hand sanded to 600 grit.  I screwed up so many times that I lost count of how many coats I applied (I chose shellac because it is very forgiving of idiot mistakes).  After the final shellac coat had dried for ~ 2 weeks, I finished off by hand rubbing with very fine (four or five zeros) steel wool dipped in mineral spirits with small scooped up blobs of dark furniture polish (from Rockler).  When this had dried to a haze I buffed the surface.  Don't wait too long or the wax sets up too hard... then you will need to rub it out with steel wool/mineral spirits/furniture wax and let it dry, not so long this time .

This finishing job was my very first serious effort; it took 6-8 weeks before I got it right, but the results are extremely nice (reality is a lot nicer than the pictures).  And of course, the Orions sound really nice.

Peter 

[richidoo]