Raspy-sounding LP's or my Stylus/Cartridge??

Niteshade · « **on:** 17 Sep 2009, 10:00 pm »

I just got my Dual 1219 back up & running- all cleaned, greased + a new stylus. Mechanically, she's 100%. Sound-wise...I don't know for certain. Some records sound GREAT- but some LP's that are recorded at high volumes sound raspy/reedy/overcooked. My needle weight is set to 1.5 grams, what the manufacturer stated was good. It seems to ride well there.

Any ideas? Some of the records are in rough shape- but I had a couple of good ones sound like this too. It's something to do with volume, maybe dynamic range? It's a very old cartridge. But- with good recordings it sounds really good. Joan Biaz & Hewey Lewis sound A++ Dolly Parton was overcooked/reedy. An warn Buril Ives record was pretty reedy as well.

orthobiz · « **Reply #1 on:** 18 Sep 2009, 12:11 am »

Apparently the stylus/cantilever suspension can age and cause sonic problems. Also, good idea to look at the stylus with a microscope. Maybe time for a new cartridge?

Paul

Niteshade · « **Reply #2 on:** 18 Sep 2009, 01:39 pm »

How much sound should you be able to hear from the turntable's needle when the amp is shut off? Silly question- but it seems loud to me.

analognut · « **Reply #3 on:** 18 Sep 2009, 04:16 pm »

The less sound coming from the un-ampflified record the better! My personal experience tells me this. My current table has been meticulously set up (and re-checked), and is almost completely silent when playing un-amplified. Noise coming off the record indicates stylus misalignment or a worn or chipped stylus. I was tempted to suggest this when I first noticed your post early this A.M., but refrained because I was a little confused by your adjectives: over-cooked- I don't get that one. Reedy, raspy I can sort of picture. If you are getting a lot of noise off the vinyl itself I would say definitely investigate your alignment and check that new stylus with a magnifier..

What cart do you have? Have you done your alignment to the stylus rather than just simply squaring up the cart? MC carts in particular can be made with the stylus not being parallel with the cart body and this is something that is often not mentioned in most of the tutorials I come across on the web.

Wayner · « **Reply #4 on:** 18 Sep 2009, 05:36 pm »

The Dual tonearm, headshell and counterweight are notorious for giving off vibs. Me thinks a bit of plasticlay will calm the arm down.

This is the one I have, a 1215. Notice the clay locations? Also a little 1000 centistroke liquid silicone on the horizontal pivot bearings will make it calm down too. Of course, if your cart is shot, time for a new one before you start damaging your records.

Wayner

BobM · « **Reply #5 on:** 18 Sep 2009, 06:49 pm »

Dual's were always noisy tables - damping everything can only help. Check the suggested VTF of your cartridge here (you may be tracking too light):

http://www.cartridgedb.com/

Niteshade · « **Reply #6 on:** 18 Sep 2009, 11:35 pm »

There is no noise coming from the drive section. It's operating very quietly- everything has been cleaned & oiled.

The issue I'm concerned with is certain records tend to distort on playback without much rhyme or reason. However, the distortion always comes up at high volume recordings.

The stylus is new, the cartridge is around 30+ years old. It's a Shure Super Track. I have another cartridge & stylus I may try... Issues seem to occur more with older records, but two good shape ones were pretty awful sounding.

Thanks everybody!

Can someone make up a cause/effect list for turntables? I'm new to this. Example: Tracking weight too light or too heavy....what happens? Turntable not level....what will that do? Tonearm not level...etc...

orthobiz · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 Sep 2009, 12:42 am »

My 1215S Dual back in the day had a Shure M55E. Never heard of the Super Track! Anyone else know it? Probably worth replacing, though...

Paul

jrtrent · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 Sep 2009, 12:15 pm »

Quote from: orthobiz on 19 Sep 2009, 12:42 am

Never heard of the Super Track! Anyone else know it?

Super Track was the designation given to the VN15E stylus on the V-15 Type II (perhaps other models, too; I'm not sure about that). Super Track Plus came on the V-15 Type III.

Since Shure stopped making these many years ago, the OP's new stylus must either be really, really, old stock (which means the rubber suspension bits may have hardened, causing tracking problems--Shure says a 10-year old stylus would most likely need to be replaced even if never played due to hardening of the suspension) or it's from an after-market source which may or may not be up to original equipment standards.

edit: It's always possible that older records, the ones the OP says are problematic, chould be damaged from earlier mistracking issues. I don't know what other cartridge and stylus he has to try out, but I would suggest making sure it's something factory fresh so it's in good shape. A new M97xE is pretty low cost and is known to be a good-tracking cartridge, and the dynamic stabilizer brush makes it compatible with a wide range of tonearm mass.

Niteshade · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 Sep 2009, 12:31 pm »

I replaced the cartridge and it came with a new stylus. It sounds much better now. The needle itself looks smaller and I am not getting as much sound emanating from the needle as before (what you hear w/ record playing & amp volume off). The new cartridge is angled differently and the tone arm is straighter (not as much dip towards the record). I set the weight properly too.

Some LP's still don't sound too good- but maybe that's the LP. Highs on some LP's can get raspy if their at high volumes. I aligned the cartridge in the headshell with a micrometer and got it within .01mm.

Note: My cartridge isn't expensive. It's a Shure M92E. The spec's seemed good and it's an old turntable. I didn't want to spend too much.

ricmon · « **Reply #10 on:** 21 Sep 2009, 07:42 pm »

Quote from: Niteshade on 21 Sep 2009, 12:31 pm

I replaced the cartridge and it came with a new stylus. It sounds much better now. The needle itself looks smaller and I am not getting as much sound emanating from the needle as before (what you hear w/ record playing & amp volume off). The new cartridge is angled differently and the tone arm is straighter (not as much dip towards the record). I set the weight properly too.

Some LP's still don't sound too good- but maybe that's the LP. Highs on some LP's can get raspy if their at high volumes. I aligned the cartridge in the headshell with a micrometer and got it within .01mm.

Note: My cartridge isn't expensive. It's a Shure M92E. The spec's seemed good and it's an old turntable. I didn't want to spend too much.

Sounds like you need Wayner's cart alignment tool. The symptoms you describe sound like a misaligned cart to me.

analognut · « **Reply #11 on:** 21 Sep 2009, 09:56 pm »

Niteshade-
Please tell me how do you align a cart in the headshell with a micrometer? I too, am starting to suspect you have alignment problems. I double-checked after my first post because I wasn't really sure how quiet my table is. It sets waist-high and when playing Lynyrd Skynyrd (i.e. loud music) I hear no sound coming off the vinyl until I get my ear within about 6" from the LP.

kingdeezie · « **Reply #12 on:** 21 Sep 2009, 11:55 pm »

Sorry to hijack, but am I understanding that if you can hear the music coming from your setup without your equipment on (obviously the TT is spinning), then something is wrong with your alignment??

Because I can hear it probably about a foot or so away....

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Sep 2009, 12:45 am »

Quote from: analognut on 21 Sep 2009, 09:56 pm

I hear no sound coming off the vinyl until I get my ear within about 6" from the LP.

I'm glad you clarified that because I can always hear some sound coming from the unamplified lp when my face is close enough to drop the needle.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Sep 2009, 12:49 am »

Quote from: Niteshade on 21 Sep 2009, 12:31 pm

I aligned the cartridge in the headshell with a micrometer and got it within .01mm.

Wow........ I can't imagine aligning anything on a turntable within a fraction of a milimeter. My eyes just aren't that good anymore.

analognut · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 Sep 2009, 02:37 am »

Hey kingdeezie-
Howdy! I would not say "something is wrong with your alignment". Actually, I guess I did imply just that above, didn't I? A better way of putting it was in my post at the top of the page: "The less noise coming from the stylus/vinyl point of contact, the better"! Not sure if your remark about always hearing something if you're a foot away was a joke or not, but if that's true that sounds pretty darn good to me. My old TT got so noisy you could hear it playing anywhere in the room. So I just threw the whole thing away and got my current "quality" rig. I wasn't joking when I said 6" away to hear Lynyrd Skynyrd. The most accurate statement I can think of to describe this is to say "If you hear noise coming from the vinyl it means that tracking can be improved"! That could involve alignment, VTA, VTF, and shape of the stylus. IMHO a micro-line or other advanced design that comes closer to the original shape of the cutter head is going to trace better, and those styli will be "quieter".

Wayner · « **Reply #16 on:** 22 Sep 2009, 11:48 am »

That un-amplified sound from the vinyl grooves depends on the tonearm. Some tonearms are internally damped to reduce resonance, others on the outside, some not at all. It also depends on the stylus type, i.e. conical, eliptical, fine line or shibata. I do agree with your theory that less energy heard, will transmit to useful energy transferred to usable signal.

Wayner

Niteshade · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 Sep 2009, 11:57 am »

A digital micrometer helped me out, not so much my eyes. The micrometer was placed from the cartridge screw head to the back of the headshell mounting track. I did this for both screws and made sure it was held in exactly the same place.

I think you hit on something: A tracking error. I don't know if much can be done about it with such an old turntable. I can't feel any resistance form the tone arm, but it's possible. Inner tracks seem to have more issues than outer tracks. The anti-skating control is in the center detente.

I forgot to add: Why do some LP's have issues and others do not?

orthobiz · « **Reply #18 on:** 22 Sep 2009, 01:40 pm »

So when is your tool (I mean cartridge set-up tools) hitting prime-time Wayner? I didn't see it on the avahifi.com splash page...

Paul

vinylphilemag · « **Reply #19 on:** 22 Sep 2009, 02:18 pm »

Quote from: Niteshade on 22 Sep 2009, 11:57 am

A digital micrometer helped me out, not so much my eyes. The micrometer was placed from the cartridge screw head to the back of the headshell mounting track. I did this for both screws and made sure it was held in exactly the same place.

That isn't necessarily the best place for cartridge placement. You need to use a cartridge alignment protractor and carefully adjust the cartridge's postition and rotation in the headshell so that the stylus is perfectly tangential to both of the null points marked on the protractor. It's fiddly, but worth it.

Quote

I think you hit on something: A tracking error. I don't know if much can be done about it with such an old turntable. I can't feel any resistance form the tone arm, but it's possible. Inner tracks seem to have more issues than outer tracks. The anti-skating control is in the center detente.

The usualy rule of thumb is to set the antiskate to the same value as the VTF, so give that a try.