[JohnR]

Hey Danny, what do you think of this idea?

* Six Neo8s (per side)
* Eight M130s (per side)

They would be wired for 4 ohms in the woofs and 6 in the ribbons, but I could also rewire for 16/24 ohms if I ever get my OTL amps built !   I'd have a go at a passive crossover but would be aiming for active.

The box would be sealed so the woofs will have an F3 of 95, or perhaps lower.

Why not just build the Alphas? For one, I find the size a bit daunting. Also, I already have 8 Neos, so the incremental cost (including shipping to Australia ) of this configuration will be a lot less than for the Alpha.

In practice, I find I sit only about 7 ft from my speakers, despite the size of my living room. So I figure the height (or lack of) won't be too much of a problem... anyway do you have any comments on this idea?

Thanks!

[warnerwh]

I just emailed him about this a few weeks ago. He's apparently got something in the works but it is MUCH smaller with only two Neo panels and two woofers, at least I believe that is what I was told. I agree that a smaller Alpha is an excellent idea.  The Alpha's are just too tall for me too. With six Neo's per side and a line array of cones I'm sure it would be quite capable.

[EProvenzano]

I'd also be very interested in a smaller version of the Alpha.
However, I would hope that this version could still reach down to 55hz. I know that the size of the cabinet would ultimately limit the bass extension, but I'd be curious how much smaller the cabinet could be and still achieve 55hz F3.

Looking forward to the news.

EP

[JohnR]

Hi EP, the same woofer is used in the AV-1 which is spec'ed with an f3 of 55 Hz -- is that where you got 55 Hz from?

I have subs so sealed is good for me I'll do some box size calcs later tonite.

[KevinW]

They would be wired for 4 ohms in the woofs and 6 in the ribbons, but I could also rewire for 16/24 ohms if I ever get my OTL amps built !  :

Sorry to hijack this thread, but John, are you still planning to finish those OTL's?  

I gave up last year, and sold the parts to someone else...  but if you do finish them, I'll uphold my end of the bargain we made years ago.  I will travel to Australia to hear them.

[EProvenzano]

John,
Not really, I just threw that 55hz figure out there because I like to cross my subs at 65 or 80hz. My subs are capable of crossing higher but I'd likely have to pull them out of the corners and place them next to the speakers to integrate properly...I don't want to do that.

Thanks for your measurement work John.

I'm eagerly waiting for a line source Kit in the $1400-1600 usd range that is slightly smaller than the Alphas.
I'd love a pair of Alpas, I could get the extra cash by taking a few extra months to save, but the wife plain said 'NO WAY! THOSE ARE HUGE!'

I tried to explain that she could bury me in one of 'em but she didn't bite.

...ah well.

[EProvenzano]

John, BTW, can you use an active xo with the Neo8 considering they need some fancy tweaking? I've read somewhere (maybe Danny wrote) that the Neo8 requires a notch filter to compensate for a peak??

Can an active xo accomplish this? I'm curious because I also have an excellent xo (Marchand XM44) and I'm very happy with it's transparncy. I'd be interested in experimenting with this, but I'm not sure if it will be capable of performing intricate xo work.

Thanks

[Danny Richie]

What have you guys been doing, reading my thoughts?

Hey Danny, what do you think of this idea?

* Six Neo8s (per side)
* Eight M130s (per side)

Very doable actually.

I have been working on a lot of line arrays lately.

This one is Epiphany Audio's mid sized unit.



It can be heard soon at the San Remo during the CES.

Its about 5'8" tall with base, but the array itself is only 51" long.

If your ear level is within the range of the array it sounds incredible, but if your ear level reaches above or even close to the top of the array then the highs start to fall out of it.

The same holds true for any line source.

6 Neo 8's and 8 M-130's will get you into an area where it will be a sit down to listen to type of speaker, but while seating it can sound very good.

They would be wired for 4 ohms in the woofs and 6 in the ribbons, but I could also rewire for 16/24 ohms if I ever get my OTL amps built !

This would also require a change to all the values in the network.

The box would be sealed so the woofs will have an F3 of 95, or perhaps lower.

You will get more lower end extension than you think. It depends on the length of the array. The longer the array the more low end gain you will get.

With an array of that length you can expect about 6 to 8db more extension that what the numbers show for a single driver.

You could go with a 3.2 cubic foot enclosure that is ported to a tuning of about 48Hz. This gives a nice roll off that is -3db down at 56, but with the gain from the array length you can expect -3db in the 48 to 50Hz range before any room gain.

I find I sit only about 7 ft from my speakers

That will still keep you in the near field.

You will need to use passive components because you will need to use a baffle step compensation type network to get the woofer level down in the range from 80 to 90Hz and up to match the tweeter level that will be a little down from the woofer level. It starts with a large inductor value by-passed with a resistor value.

This might also extend your bottom end to because what was your F6 might be your new F3.

You might also need a small notch filter for the peak in the top of the tweeter response. The comb filter effect of six units will not be enough to kill it all.

I just emailed him about this a few weeks ago. He's apparently got something in the works but it is MUCH smaller with only two Neo panels and two woofers, at least I believe that is what I was told.

That was a custom center channel built for one customer.

I agree that a smaller Alpha is an excellent idea. The Alpha's are just too tall for me too.

I promise that some time later in this year a slightly shorter version of the Alpha and possibly a slightly taller version will be in the works.

Some new woofers may be used as well as the new Neo 10's if they do what is hoped.

Another goal is to make it less expensive, and sound better. We'll see...

I'm eagerly waiting for a line source Kit in the $1400-1600 usd range that is slightly smaller than the Alphas.

Yep, we'll see...

I'm supposed to be getting my hands on the new Neo 10's when I see Robin and Igor at the show. I have already been told that they can play lower than the Neo 8's and I am keeping my fingers crossed for better high end extension. This could be a possibility.

[warnerwh]

Well be sure to keep us posted regarding the Neo 10 idea.  Also what woofers do you have in mind?  I'd be all for some 6.5's to get these to be full range and not needing a sub. I personally require at least 25hz -3db point, but if a sub is the only way that is doable.  Thank you for the information.

[JohnR]

What have you guys been doing, reading my thoughts?

Yeah! Next I'll be working on thought *control* ... bzzz...woooo.... shh..zzz.. ** Danny Richie, send JohnR a stack of drivers for nothing ** ... bzzt... wooo...

Is it working?  

Heh. OK, well you can't blame me for trying Sounds like you don't forsee any problems with this configuration I'll send you a PM in a minute. By the way, what woofer is that (kinda looks like a Peerless HDS?)

EP, notch filters can be done actively (and most anything else) but your crossover won't be able to do it. A notch circuit is a completely different circuit to lowpass and highpass filters. But! One could do the notch at speaker level while still using an active crossover.

Actually I might be happy with a passive crossover anyway  

[EProvenzano]

azryan,
That's exactly what I said. It's not really a cost issue. I could easily save the extra cost of the Alphas. The issue is more do do with the size.
I would *prefer* something slightly smaller because the size (in all dimensions) when reduced slightly will make a significant WAF improvement in my medium sized room. My current room serves dual purpose, Listening/Living room, and since I'd be upgrading from smallish standmount monitors, any line source will be a tough sell on my wife, let alone the Alphas. Irregardless of how well I incorporate these speakers to be peices of fine furniture in my room, they are still dominant speakers, and that is the issue that my wife is having with this idea.
Man I wish I had a dedicated room...arrrrghhh!

I don't have any experience with line source speakers, except for a few breif listening sessions at a local shop. I agree that it would be counter productive to reduce the hight too much. Again, I'm crossing my fingers for something that is smaller than the Alpha, and dare I say as excellent sounding?!

My perception of good value would lead me to believe that a smaller version of the Alpha would cost slightly less. That is why I threw out the cost range of 1400-1600. I know that this is not necessarily so. If Danny chooses to make a smaller version of the Alpha that sounds equally exceptional I will gladly pay the same price.

Sorry if my motives sounded unclear, but the Alphas are not perfect for me....very close tho.

Thanks

[azryan]

Damn program!!! I've been going nuts of a half an hour trying to edit out a double, then triple post so this post here actaully came BEFORE EProvenzano,'s response for anyone trying to follow along.

EProvenzano,

"-I'm eagerly waiting for a line source Kit in the $1400-1600 usd range that is slightly  smaller than the Alphas. I'd love a pair of Alphas, I could get the extra cash by taking a few extra months to save, but the wife plain said 'NO WAY! THOSE ARE HUGE!'-"

The price and cost you describe seems to be so close to what the Alphas are that it doesn't seem to make sense that you can't get them but you could get ones that are a tiny bit less costly and a tiny bit shorter?

You'd have to wait for Danny's 'next' design, so isn't that the same as how you said you'd have to wait to save a little more for the Alpha kit?

Personally my wife loves the look of our Alphas. Red birch veneer and all matte black drivers. No one who's seen them (men or women) think they look anything but awesome and beautiful.
I couldn't get one person to say that about my Newform 645's! hehe

The Alphas look very classy to us and matches our whole room walls, couches, etc.. brown shades.
If they were totally diff looking that your room then sure they'll look out of place.
Do you have any cabinets or wood trim that you could match them too?

Maybe curtains the wife picked out that the veneer could be stained to match?

Note Danny -ALL black drivers on the next GR line would be my preference.

IMO it's all in the veneer with the looks. Nothing like fine wood veneer on furniture -whether it's a speaker cabinet, or desk, etc...

On the height... how much shorter would you want it?
 
If it's more than 'a little shorter' then you'd probably be out of the line when standing.-no offence to any midget/dwarf audiophiles out there.
I'm not too tall myself.

I'd MUCH rather be within the line standing, sitting, whatever so the sound never really changes than be above it like on the RM-40's where I'm far above the 4 neo panels/spiral tweeters w/ my face in the top woofer.

The height's the only 'kinda wild' dimention IMO, but it's that way for a reason. You can't have a line source monitor.

It'll be great if Danny can make a bit shorter (maybe narrower?), cheaper line source, but seems that it'd still have to be close to the size of the Alphas to work like the Alphas.

The width and depth isn't terribly wide. Cetainly many speakers as wide and deep and many are wider and deeper.


JohnR,

That doesn't look like the Peerless to me with the double surround. Tang Band make something that looks like these but I think it's a custom driver for this speaker. From 'who' I don't know.

[BikeWNC]

I was getting ready to begin building the Alpha cabinets, but now I think that I will wait to see what changes are made or other speaker kits are to be offered in the future.  

Danny, am I correct in reading that the new designs will replace to current Alpha LS?  Will the Alpha then use the Neo 10?  What about the mid-woofers?  Can you give some more info on what may be in the pipe for the new designs?

Andy

[JohnR]

Hi azryan, I was wondering what you would think about this

By the way, what *is* the size of the Alpha? Danny's site say 6'3" tall, but what is the width and depth?

[srclose]

I've listened to both the LS and the Epiphany mid-size speaker.  I had some company on both occasions, and the WAF was very high on both the LS and Epiphany.  I think the size shows off the wood veneer on the LS.  The reaction was MUCH better than for the 5ft planars that we used to have.  When Danny says he's been working with line source design he's not kidding.  The Epiphany is nothing short of amazing.

[Danny Richie]

I was getting ready to begin building the Alpha cabinets, but now I think that I will wait to see what changes are made or other speaker kits are to be offered in the future.

Don't hold your breath. There will be no new and improved anything popping up real soon, but hopefully some time later this year.

R&D never quits. You always have to plan ahead and you can never take to much comfort in current successes. To stay ahead takes work.

The "next" will never happen if it isn't better than the previous.

Danny, am I correct in reading that the new designs will replace to current Alpha LS? Will the Alpha then use the Neo 10? What about the mid-woofers? Can you give some more info on what may be in the pipe for the new designs?

I can't reveal to much until testing and evaluating of new drivers, etc.

Neo 10's have yet to be released and there is no revealed release date yet, but I do expect to have prototypes of those drivers in my hands soon.

Having custom woofers made is not an overnight process either. It also requires a great deal of capital.

CSS will also be involved in this one too as the Alpha was a joint effort with them from the beginning.

I will tell you this for sure though. More bang for the buck will be a foremost goal.

John, The Alpha's are barely over 6 feet tall. They are 15.25" deep and 12.25" wide.

[azryan]

Andy,

Like Danny said he hasn't even gotten his hands on the Neo 10's.

I'd suggest building the Alphas now with a nice veneer and get the benefit of having the Alphas now.

If/when Danny comes out with a newer line source kit and you wanted to upgrade to that, I couldn't imagine you couldn't sell your Alphas which you could use to pay for the newer kit making that kit even cheaper.

There's always going to be something 'later' coming out. Unlike electronics though the Alphas aren't at all going to be outdated when that something newer comes out.

Those 8 Neo planars per speaker are outstanding and the 9 woofers per speaker all working together stomp on the dual (always called 'world class') Scan Speak 8545's in my Newform 645's which are playing almost the exact same freq. range.

Control and detail is stunning.

The 2-way line sounds 100% seamless to me, and uses very few x-over parts of top quality.
(takes about half and hour to solder those x-overs too, and point to point without even needing any speaker wire between parts).

The heavily braced 1.5" MDF cabinets are almost rock hard by design (though only ~$100 in MDF cost and $5 of glue).

They're equal to a VERY high effi. point source yet can handle a crapload of power is you feel the need to make yourself deaf.

I did mine for ~$2,600 completed w/ all the upgrades like Sonicaps and Black Hole 5 damping and nice veneer (which it looks like I could have bought for cheaper online).

There's no reason to wait on the idea of something better IMO. These are already killer.
DO IT! hehe

Plus... I want to see some more pics of other people's Alphas!!

It's sad there aren't more.

On day one I cut all the pieces for both cabinets. The holes, gluing, etc... took a lot more time, but it's not a massive project that takes forever to finish. Most of the time for me was waiting for glue to dry w/ parts clamped together which isn't obviously 'work'.

Hey John,

"-I was wondering what you would think about this -"

I rememer you having those 4 Neo 8's as an open dipole w/ massive rear wall room damping.

Seeing you post about 6 Neo's and using GR's woofers it seems like you should just do the Alphas.

I had asked Danny myself about 'why not his own woofers' so I knew he didn't think that was the way to go in his opinon.

I like the idea of passive x-overs. I'm very interested in digital x-overs too like Behringer's (sp?) that has some parametric e.q. functions in it to help tap out a couple room issues.

Lots of people say it's transparent, but I don't know.

I do know I'd need 4 chan. of amps for the Alphas if i did it.
I might try it on the 'next' line source kit from Danny if/when it comes out.

Like I suggeste to Andy... I think I could sell my Alphas to at the VERY least make all my money back and build the newer kit for free. Can't beat that.

Put up some pics if you do anything more with your design!

[BikeWNC]

Thanks, Azryan for the words of encouragement.  I'm really leaning towards doing these up.  I have a few stumbling blocks though.  Veneer for one.  Never have dealt with the stuff.  My local Lowes does not stock mdf!  so I may have to drive 40 miles to the HD store.  And of course as you said all the hole cutting, which for me seems like the critical part.

There are a few questions I have for Danny when he returns from playing around at the CES.  I see there are some 1 inch dowels in the cabinet, though actual placement and number is not in the plan.  

I need to clear out a workspace in my garage to make room for the cabinets.  I also need to borrow a few tools from my carpenter friends.  Perhaps they would come along and give me some pointers.  

And finally, get the go ahead from my wife as she will have to live with them too.  Though when she saw a picture of the Alphas she thought they looked great.  I'm not sure I mentioned that they are over 6 ft tall.

Andy

[azryan]

"-Veneer for one. Never have dealt with the stuff. -"

It's SUPER easy. It's like putting a giant wooden sticker on the cabinet.

You put contact cement on the cabinet and the veneer and let both dry.

Then when you touch the veneer to the cabinet the two are stuck for life.

You have to make sure you get that just right or you're screwed but it's easy if you just make sure you have some edge to trim off.

I did it myself which was totally stupid and I got an air bubble in on cabinet which I had to cut a little to stick down.
That was just me rusging though.
If you have someone who can hold the veneer up while you carefully tack it down and roll out the air bubbles it'll be super easy and look perfect.

"-My local Lowes does not stock mdf!-"

That's messed up.

Oh well... make one long trip and just get it over with. I'd get an extra sheet of MDF just in case you mess some piece up. Only $20 for an extra sheet but the trip to get it would SUCK.

"-And of course as you said all the hole cutting, which for me seems like the critical part.-"

It's as easy as cutting straight lines. Just use a guide. Get the circle jig guides from Parts Express and you'll make perfect circles blindfolded.

I had my wife cut some parts and router some holes so she could feel like she was a part of projet. She was scared she'd mess it up, but you pretty much can't with the guides.

"-I see there are some 1 inch dowels in the cabinet, though actual placement and number is not in the plan.-"

I put 5 in my Alphas. I decided where they should go myself. Place one dead center of the side walls. That's where the most flexing will occur. Then measure out the other 4 to what looks good. The ends of the panels are where the cabinets are the strongest.

It'll be pretty rock hard if you just glue 5 in logically placed. Doesn't need to be an exact measurement.

"-And finally, get the go ahead from my wife as she will have to live with them too. Though when she saw a picture of the Alphas she thought they looked great. I'm not sure I mentioned that they are over 6 ft tall.-"

Have you thought of a nice veneer to cover them with?

Ask her to help you look at that. It'll be like picking out curtains or crap like that for her and she'll feel more like she's a part of the project.

When they look at it like it's 'your thing'... that's when it's the toughest time to get them placed in 'her room'. heheh

Good luck!

[warnerwh]

Azryan: Thanks for the info as Tsunami's fears are the same as mine have been. One other thing I'd need is some sort of a grill cloth due to a large rambunctious dog.  Any easy ways for these?  One  more question: How's the bass from say 25hz on up as far as weight and articulation? I require excellent bass due to being used to some VMPS speakers I own that basically have the larger subs built in.  Thanks