VERY small room!!!

ZENTISH · « **on:** 9 Sep 2009, 10:52 pm »

Hi All, I just moved my system into an unused bedroom that is 10ft X 10ft by 8ft high. It was a shock how bad it sounded!! I knew it was not going to be perfect but I didn't expect this. Before this it was located in the formal living room that is pretty large with vaulted ceilings and I was really satisfied with the sound but, now my wife wants her living room back and this very small bedroom is now my stereo room. I found "nine" 703- 2 inch thick panels on craigslist with the intention of making some bass traps and absorbers to help with the room but, after hearing my system in there I am doubtful that anything will make it sound descent. Am I wasting my time and money trying to make this room sound good or is there hope?
The room is typical drywall construction with wall to wall carpeting over concrete.The wall behind the speakers has a window that is 4 ft high by 5ft wide and is about 3ft from the floor. behind the listening chair the wall has a door in the corner. the wall to the right is continuous and the wall to the left has sliding closet doors that span about 8 ft. Please help!! Thanks, Tish

jakelieb · « **Reply #1 on:** 9 Sep 2009, 11:04 pm »

Tish,

Don't give up yet. I moved my stereo into a 12x13x8 bedroom and it was horrendous. I built some bass traps (using 703 panels) and side reflections points, etc. And now have a very nice sound. Is it perfect . . . well no, but no room is perfect, but it is the best I've ever had.

Use the 703 to make some basstraps and slap them into the corners . . . top to bottom. Put some at your reflection points along the side walls and you'll be amazed with the difference. If you want to do a test just move the fiberglass panels into the room and do the slap test, before and after.

That small of a room you will find some music better than others. I picked up one of Johnny Cash's American Recording and was amazed at the immediacy that was in the cd. Sounded like he was in the room with his guitar.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Jake

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #2 on:** 9 Sep 2009, 11:08 pm »

Others are more knowledgeable, but your room is too small, in my opinion, for serious listening with full range speakers. I have a 205 square foot room, which is too small, and your room has one-half the square footage. You can deal with mid/high frequency reflections, and you could even possibly arrange a near-field listening situation, but you will not be easily able to deal effectively with the low frequencies, even with broadband absorption. If you use some LS3/5A-type speakers that don't have much if any bass below 100hz, you might be OK.

richidoo · « **Reply #3 on:** 10 Sep 2009, 12:43 am »

Lemons? Make lemonade!

Get 4x8 sheets of FG, and wallpaper the room and ceiling with the panels, covered in nice cloth. Then put corner traps in every linear foot of corner in the room except at the door. It will be dead, so add diffusion behind your head, on first reflections wall and ceiling, maybe front wall to taste. You will have a pseudo anechoic chamber with a little spicey diffusion added. It is AWESOME! You can hear every detail and the bass will be awesome in a small room. You may need to get smaller speakers to compensate for the reduced volume boosting the bass, but it will be clear and fast even with a small speaker. Learn to add a resistor to your woofer to reduce its volume if necessary. Electronic purity and crossover design is important, you can hear every form of distortion easily. The deadness is gone the moment the music starts, you brain locks into the recorded ambiance and the illusion is intense. You listen at a much lower volume because of the low ambient noise. You get total satisfaction from the penetrating fast bass. Put a lock on the door, because ambient noises will really startle you when you are deep in musical trance. Make sure your AC vent has good flow.

JLM · « **Reply #4 on:** 10 Sep 2009, 07:42 pm »

The good news is that it seems to be your room. So you'll be free to experiment all you want.

The bad news is that its small and square. I'd try non-symetrical layouts and absorption/diffusion schemes to reduce standing waves. Being small/square it may not be possible to develop deep/clean bass. The best option may be small/sealed speaker designs.

Absorption will make the room seem bigger. But I think twice before spending too much trying to break the laws of physics.

Have you considered headphones? When trapped in college dorms I did headphones instead of fighting the cinder block walls, small room, and competing outside noise. Imaging is the real challenge, but detail is super and cost are way down. Overall it was by far the smartest audio decision I made in those years.

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #5 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 01:23 am »

I found that my Spendor S3/5 played very well in my 205 sq. foot treated room, and I don't have a bump at 45hz when using speakers that don't play to 45hz. The room treatments really helped bring out the bass, and the speakers seemed to play much deeper. Whatever bass I have is tight, fast, punchy, well-defined (all the good adjectives). It isn't as good as full range speakers, IMO, but if I had an even smaller room, I would not use the full range speakers.

I don't know what you are using for speakers, but there are some good deals on the LS3/5A-type monitors. The Linn Tukan has a bright tweeter, the KEF 101 Reference Series is the best of the three that I own, and the Spendor comes a close second to the KEF but has a little more bass. A Salk HT-1 or an Ellis 1801 might also be an option.

Regardless of your speakers, rigid fiberglass is your friend, and the thicker the better. You are going to need 8" thick panels, and lots of it, in that room, unless you go with speakers that roll off about 100hz.

timind · « **Reply #6 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 01:50 am »

A little system information would be a big help here, especially speakers.
I had a similar situation a few years back while we were waiting for our house to be built. Moved my system into a tiny extra bedroom in our apartment. It took some doing but it is possible with the right speakers and a little work.

ebag4 · « **Reply #7 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 02:17 am »

Open baffle bass works well in small rooms as it doesn't load the room like boxed bass will.

Best,
Ed

ZENTISH · « **Reply #8 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 04:32 am »

Thanks Guys!!! I appreciate your responses.

I'm going take Jake's advice and place the panels in the room without building frames and stuff just to see how it is going to work out.
Here is a little bit about my system=

speakers- Sonist concerto 2's (front ported, ribbon tweet and 8inch bass driver)
amps- 5 watt single ended (two el84 single ended amps strapped to mono on tweets and a stereo el34 single ended amp on woofer)
pre amp-uses 6SN7 tubes
transport and tube DAC
turntable and tube phono stage
two TBI subs (very fast 6inch driver goes down to 22hz.)
everything wired in silver except for digital

Oneinthepipe-do you really think that the panels will have to be 8inch thick? I was going to make them half of that and space them about 2inch from wall. But I'm willing to try anything to get this system sounding good again.

Thanks again, Tish

JackD201 · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 05:26 am »

I feel for you man. The room isn't only square it's practically a cube. The best bet is to go extremely nearfied (not that there's much choice really) and try to create as much space behind the speaker position.

Try setting them up by looking at the room like a diamond instead of a square with one of the corners between the 2 loudspeakers. A cylindrical broadband absorber can go in that corner. The first reflections will be directed behind you in this configuration. That's ok. Given the small size however the second reflections coming from behind you will be strong and pesky. Further these will hit you squarely. Treat the rear walls heavily then. 4" might be enough. If not, add another 4" in sections. Until the mids and highs are adequately presented.

As for bass articulation, sorry to say but you are a candidate for active digital room correction. Bass traps that handle 60hz and below tend to be fairly large. Not a pretty prospect when space is at a premium. I say this also because you are using low power for medium/high sensitivity loudspeakers. Over damping the room may cause you're system to run out of juice fairly quickly leading to something very ironic: more powerful amps for a smaller room. DRC might allow you to keep your system intact instead of starting over. In these times, that makes sense.

Good luck!

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #10 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 05:49 am »

Quote from: ZENTISH on 11 Sep 2009, 04:32 am

Oneinthepipe-do you really think that the panels will have to be 8inch thick?

6" thick minimum for any panels that are intended to absorb lower frequencies.

I didn't use thick enough panels the first and second time that I did my room. This next time, the fourth time, I am merely intending to add (12) more 6" thick panels to double up (4) of the existing 6" panels, add (6) more panels to the ceiling, and install (2) panels against the side walls. When that is completed, there will be (26) 6" thick panels in the little room. It might seem like an awful lot, and I wish it were, but with a small room, a lot of low end absorption is necessary, in my opinion. There are also (4) 4" thick panels and (4) 2" thick panels.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 06:45 am »

ZENTISH ...

Quote

speakers- Sonist concerto 2's (front ported, ribbon tweet and 8inch bass driver)

Those are nice speakers....

JLM · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 10:20 am »

Sorry ebag4, but I don't understand why open baffles would be better in a small room. I'm familiar with the sound of several and the cancellation of front and back out of phase wave fronts in-plane of the baffle. But open baffles need more open space around them to properly/fully function (behind to develop the back wave and in front to form the large soundscape). I typically recommend at least a 20 foot deep room to obtain both.

I'm with Jack, try completely skewed layouts (free) first. Unfortunately there is little you can do in this near cube. Providing reflective/absorptive surfaces on opposite walls (and floor/ceiling) with the skewing could help.

I use digital equalization in my fairly ideal listening room/speaker/setup, but only after adding absorption. And frankly it made much more difference than the absorption.

bpape · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 10:27 am »

If I understand the layout correctly, I'd swap to face the one continuous wall. That gives you the best symmetry in front of you.

For absorbtion, yes, you'll need some. I'd start with some 6" panels in the 2 front corners and a pair of 6" panels centered behind your listening position.

Add a couple of 2" panels starting about where the front baffle of the speakers are on the side wall.

Bryan

bunnyma357 · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 10:50 am »

I have a similar room 10 x 10 x 9, and had bad initial results. Room treatments made a big difference - I've got 4 GIK Monster Bass Traps and 2 244 Panels, and one ATS 244 panel. With my room being almost a cube the room modes were pretty bad, even with the treatments. I ended up adding a Behringer FDP 1124 to EQ out the bass/room modes.

Those two things have made the room very nice to listen to music in.

Jim C

ebag4 · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 02:33 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 11 Sep 2009, 10:20 am

Sorry ebag4, but I don't understand why open baffles would be better in a small room. I'm familiar with the sound of several and the cancellation of front and back out of phase wave fronts in-plane of the baffle. But open baffles need more open space around them to properly/fully function (behind to develop the back wave and in front to form the large soundscape). I typically recommend at least a 20 foot deep room to obtain both.

Hi JLM,
It has been my experience (specifically in my small room 12.5x10.5x8) that OB bass is significantly less "boomy" than the boxed speakers I have tried. OB bass loads the room differently and seems to excite room nodes to a lesser degree. The OB bass has given me cleaner punchier bass with no overhang.

I agree that the OB speakers need room to breath, mine are pulled into the room about 4' and from the side walls about 2', of course I am listening nearfield (about a 6' equilateral triangle).

Best,
Ed

Cacophonix · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 04:04 pm »

I'm facing a similar issue with my line arrays in a very small room (12'x12'x9'). Apart from my audio setup, i have also crammed in a L-desk with hutch for my PC in one corner. My listening area is a 7' triangle ... and the arrays don't go much below a 100Hz. And i've tried the rythmik subwoofer, but couldn't get it to integrate there. The room is awful. I've built 2 3" 703 panels, and 2 4" rockwool panels. But i'm not sure they are helping the bass issues.

I thought of going with GR OB sub, but not sure if i can give it room to breathe. Maybe I need to try the multiple sub idea ...

Steven Stone · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 Sep 2009, 04:01 am »

I have two unorthodox solutions for you:

First instead of setting up everything symmetrically in relation to a back wall, try setting up on a triangle in relation to a corner - Jeff Joseph has used such a set-up for several years at CES to make the typical bonky hotel rooms sound decent. It can reduce early reflections and room resonances.

Also if you must set up parallel to a rear wall don't set up equidistant from both side walls - you have a square room - symmetry will only reinforce peaks and nulls. even a 6" offset should help reduce resonant peaks noticeably at listening position. Also pay attention to your ear height DON'T end up with your ears 4 feet up from the floor and 4 feet down from your ceiling - again this reinforces room anomalies.

A last resort if you can't get decent sound after trying all your possible variations - put in a nearfield desktop listening system - it can take the room out of the equation and provide really great sound...yes you may have to go with different speakers, but all the rest of you gear will work.

ZENTISH · « **Reply #18 on:** 12 Sep 2009, 04:46 am »

Hi all, Well after reading all the advice that you guys are giving, I have decided to first see if a diagonal setup sounds any better (thanks Jack & Steve). It makes sense to me to find the best sound that I can without treatment and then I can start installing bass traps and absorbers all over the place until I get it sounding as good as I can. Looks like I'm going to need a LOT more of those 2inch panels so that I can make them 6 inch thick!

One question- when installing the 6inch panels on the walls should I place them with an air gap between the wall and the panel? And if so how much of a gap?

I also don't know which type of bass trap to use, round like a tube trap, 6inch thick flat panel diagonal across the corner, or stacking triangles up in the corners? Also how high should the corner treatments go? If I go with the 6inch panels diagonally setup across the corners should they go all the way to the ceiling?

Thanks for helping me with my new stereo room!!! Tish

JLM · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 Sep 2009, 11:55 am »

Yes, start with layout first as the cheapest, easiest, and most fundamental step. The "triangular" or "corner" speaker setup can be improved upon by skewing so that speaker/listener arrangement isn't "balanced" or symmetrical with anything else in the room.

Here are a couple of useful links:

http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm (about half way down is an image that explains what I'm trying to say)

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup (while everything shown is symmetrical it speaks to speaker/listener locations and the advantages of even slightly skewed walls)

Anything you can do to reduce the symmetry and "cubiness" of the room will help.

Having an air gap behind the absorption panels is best, an inch or two is fine.

If you follow the absorption vendors here, you'll stick with flat or triangular panels and you'll buy lots of them (floor to ceiling and beyond). Speaking with tongue in cheek, they really are good guys who believe in their stuff.

Starting with say GIK 244 flat panels you can try first reflection points and/or corners. The 244s work best in the corners for bass frequencies but also do a good job on higher frequencies. I have six and have finally settled on two straddling the front corners, two at front wall first reflection points, and two at side wall first reflection points (to my Cardas nearfield setup). They all ended up standing on the floor (tried elevating them, but didn't seem to make a difference).