New project: Speaker Alignment Tool (SAT)

Wayner · « **on:** 5 Sep 2009, 06:09 pm »

As some of you may know, I do all of my vinyl listening in my studio. In my opinion, it's one of the greatest environments to listen to vinyl as I am using the near field technique, sitting within 6 to 7 feet from the speakers. This is very revealing listening environment, but it is fragile. Careless speaker positioning can result in destroyed sound stages.

So I have been working on speaker positioning protractors. I have soon realized that the one working proto-type I have will not work for other speakers with other then flat faces, so trying to discover a "universal" design is very a daunting task.

The system requires a little surveying to establish reference line of symmetry. At least 2 are required to begin with, dividing the back plane into equal halves and determining proper spacing from the rear of the speaker. Once those datums are established, the next goal is to locate the left and right speakers in a symmetrical field about the room center divider, and setting the toe-in angles for each speaker totally and completely complimentary to each other. The question for me is deciding if 1 degree increments are enough, or do I have to do down to 1/2 degree.

Any comments or interests?

Wayner

nrenter · « **Reply #1 on:** 5 Sep 2009, 06:13 pm »

I think it sounds interesting. I'm listening in a 11' x 11.5' x 12' room in a 90" equallateral triangle. Always interested in your work.

Wayner · « **Reply #2 on:** 5 Sep 2009, 07:14 pm »

I used to be a fan of equilateral positioning, but I think lots of tweeters sound harsh, or maybe "unreal" when they are pointed directly at the ear. Now days, many speakers have excellent off-axis response. I actually always try to find the "Gee" spot that I can't explain very well, but I know when the speakers are there as this "seperate, yet together" sound is projected. I hear it right now. I can literally sit about three feet in front of the right speaker and hear the left speaker wrap around giving me this wonderful surround sensation. A couple of degrees tilt one way or another and it's gone. Some of the sensation I can describe is a few micro-second delay in stereo type of effect. Not sure what causes this, but I like it. At this juncture, the sound field is huge and demands your attention. It is true stereo IMHO, and is also, in a way, multi-channel.

The first battle is to achive symmetry, the second to find the sweet toe-in angle, that might not be much, depending on room size, furnishings, room treatment and listening distance, among also the speakers themselves.

Wayner

gjs_cds · « **Reply #3 on:** 5 Sep 2009, 09:31 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 5 Sep 2009, 07:14 pm

I used to be a fan of equilateral positioning, but I think lots of tweeters sound harsh, or maybe "unreal" when they are pointed directly at the ear.

I'm not a fan of traditional "monkey-coffin" speaker designs in general. Dipolar designs (i.e., electrostatic, planar, ribbon, etc) sound far more natural to my ears. I've got a home-theater system of dipolar monkey-coffins (Eosone, I got them 75% off while in college working at *wince* Best Buy. Arnie Nudell design manufactured by Polk.)

In any event, dipolar designs make the direct positioning / equilateral positioning kind of moot.

You're an electrostatic guy, are you not?

Wayner · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 Sep 2009, 01:17 am »

I have all kinds. ESLs are very interesting by them selves, let alone the traditional "box" speakers. That maybe another discussion altogether.

Wayner

orthobiz · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 Sep 2009, 01:27 am »

GeeSpot is a good name.
My room is symmetrical.
My Dahlquists are wide and are the AntiMonkeyCoffin.

I'm a perfect guinea pig.

Paul

nrenter · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 Sep 2009, 02:21 am »

Here's a link to my system over at Audiogon. We all have different ideas of what consititutes good sound. I insist on fully-balanced components with zero negative-feeback, and speakers with first-order crossovers. My system is designed with the inherent limitations of my physical space in mind, and since I only listen in one location, I don't care how things sound 1-foot to the left, or 1-foot to the right. I think my system sounds amazing, but I could see how some would not care for the presentation. I'm interested in reading about your speaker set-up process.

Dan Kolton · « **Reply #7 on:** 6 Sep 2009, 03:03 pm »

Wayner,

Take some time to read some of the technical information at http://www.linkwitzlab.com/. Very informative information from Siegfried Linkwitz on room acoustics and speaker design. Yes, this is the well known Linkwitz of filter design fame. Now retired from H-P, and spending his time with audio study.

Wayner · « **Reply #8 on:** 6 Sep 2009, 04:44 pm »

Thanks Dan, I'll check it out. I really not trying to make any cool speaker statement here, I just want to design a cool way to set speaker toe-in angles so that both speakers match. I not really concerned about any acoustic theory or anything like that. More geometry stuff. That fact that my select few speakers in my studio have a "Gee" spot, may be unique to my room, my acoustics and even my speakers. I am looking for a good way to set symmetry.

Have a good one. Also drive safe as there have been again, a shit load of accidents over the holiday weekend (for those of us in the US).

Wayner

orthobiz · « **Reply #9 on:** 6 Sep 2009, 08:11 pm »

GeeSpot
GeeSpot
GeeSpot

and the phono thing could be

GeeAlign or GeeLine

I think I'm onto something, Wayner.......

Paul

Listens2tubes · « **Reply #10 on:** 6 Sep 2009, 11:46 pm »

Gee

I use the floor boards to set front wall distance and toe-in. Oh gee

I forgot to meantion using a ruler.

Listens2tubes · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Sep 2009, 01:43 am »

Have you looked at the Master Set procedure Sumiko developed for it's dealers? http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64321.0

avahifi · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 Sep 2009, 02:04 pm »

Hi Wayner,

I will need you to tweek the locations of my Salk HT3s the next time you visit me here. You might put the skill to work for us too at the RMAF in our display room with Jim Salk.

Regards,

Frank

Wayner · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Sep 2009, 02:18 pm »

I will bring my surveying equipment with!

Wayner

Listens2tubes · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Sep 2009, 07:55 pm »

If all your in search of is symmetry the Master Set info is off track. If not here is a review http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rspkr&1197744079&read&keyw&zzsumiko Enjoy!

BTW: My system precludes easily moving my speakers. They were set up using fractions and will mean patching floor boards and making new holes.

Wayner · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Sep 2009, 08:14 pm »

All we need is a tape measure, some masking tape and some music. We also have several sets of speakers to contend with.

Wayner

bmckenney · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 Sep 2009, 03:38 am »

I use taped off references points on the floor and a tape measure to set the distance of a speaker from the walls. I also us a reference line on the floor in front of each speaker along with shop protractor to set toe in angle. I find this works best. Better than string or laser and aiming for on axis. I find 1 degree is close enough. I'd be interested in a nifty all purpose speaker toe in protractor too.

Anji12305 · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 12:15 pm »

Would an off the shelf rotating laser (framing aid) be useful?

If you could employ two, so that the horizontal planes matched the crossover angle could be set as desired.

I'm unsure how you could accurately gauge distances this way, unless you have an ultrasonic "tape".

http://www.engineersupply.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=ES1697&affid=7
The Bosch ultrasonic measure is my first choice after a story pole.

Wayner · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 09:14 pm »

I looked at one of those and I didn't feel the angular segments where fine enough. The greater the distance the more refined the scale has to be.

Wayner

jhm731 · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Sep 2009, 09:48 pm »

See the aiming procedure in:

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/monitoring.htm

If the center line of each speaker is aimed at the same point in the listening area, there
shouldn't be any need to measure the angles.