[Laundrew]

Vegasdave and I were posting some JBL pictures to each other last night, after I posted a picture of the JBL K2s - I was struck by a thought. At what point do the law of diminishing returns apply to audio equipment?

I am very happy with the performance of my current system - how much would I have to spend to notice a huge improvement in audio quality? Another consideration is that my hearing will most likely degrade somewhat over the years.

For example, if I wanted to upgrade my JBL Project Arrays, the next logical speaker choice for me would be the JBL K2s. At a list price of approximately $40K, am I going to be totally "blown away" by the K2s  performance over my Project Arrays? What about the JBL Everest - are they going to totally eclipse the K2s? At what point do you get less return for your money?

I can justify adding a new format to my system based on audio performance, for example, the addition of a turntable. I auditioned a turntable a little while ago and I definitely experienced a "wow" factor. Now, at $5K-$10K for this purchase of a turntable and phono preamplifier - I can hear a substantial improvement over a CD format. But then again we are looking at audio formats.

I respect the amount of knowledge and experience that other members have here at AudioCircle and I would be very interested to hear your opinions concerning this subject. Especially if you have attended audio shows and listened to "uber systems."

Deminishing returns - what do you think

Be well... 

[vegasdave]

IF you have the room for them, and I mean a big and acoustically sound room, go for the K2s if you can afford them. The resale should be higher.

I haven't heard them but I've heard the Everests. Best speaker I've ever heard, honestly. The price? A cool $60k.

Basically, you're gonna have to audition them, preferable with your electronics, and I don't know of any dealer that has the K2s, let alone the everests, on display.

My suggestion is to contact JBL and see if you can get a demo somewhere. Even if you have to travel, do it. These speakers aren't cheap!

[Laundrew]

IF you have the room for them, and I mean a big and acoustically sound room, go for the K2s if you can afford them. The resale should be higher.

I haven't heard them but I've heard the Everests. Best speaker I've ever heard, honestly. The price? A cool $60k.

Basically, you're gonna have to audition them, preferable with your electronics, and I don't know of any dealer that has the K2s, let alone the everests, on display.

My suggestion is to contact JBL and see if you can get a demo somewhere. Even if you have to travel, do it. These speakers aren't cheap!

Hello vegasdave,

What I was suggesting was when do you reach a point where the more money you invest into an audio system - only provides a nominal increase in audio quality at best. If I have a pair of $40K JBL K2s next to a pair of $60K JBL Everests, am I going to notice a really huge difference in audio quality that warrants an extra $20K?

We can make the same argument for cables. Lets say that you spent $2500 on a set of cables - now Brand X sells their cables for $5000. Would you be able to notice a large difference in audio quality between these two brands? Even if one is at double the cost of the other? Lets say that I wanted a better sounding amp than the 28Bs. Would I have to double (or tripple) the initial cost of the 28B to find a vastly superior amplifier? Would it be worth it?

I think that once you reach a certain level in audio performance, it becomes very difficult and extremely costly to improve upon it.

Be well...

[Stu Pitt]

There is no one static point of diminishing returns.  Everyone's financial situation is different, as are their ears, room, music, and ultimately - priorities.

Another way to look at diminishing returns is this way -

Some people will make $1k before lunch on Monday.  It'll take others 3 weeks to get there.  Diminishing returns will be different for them.  An extra $5k for an incrimental improvement to the first guy may be no big deal.  The second guy's entire system most likely won't be $5k total.

My system is in my signature.  This would be considered by many to be past the point of diminishing returns.  To a lot here, its not even close.

I buy the best I can comfortably afford.  So long as the bills are paid and I've got some emergency funds, I have no regrets spending the money I do on my system and my music.  If I had the disposable income for it, I'd be all over a BP-26/28B/BCD-1/BDA-1... system.

[timind]

There are several factors that must be considered before the question can be answered.
What is the goal of the system?
How committed to the hobby are you?
What is your financial situation?
What can be achieved in your listening environment?
If your goal is the absolute sonic pinnacle then there are no diminishing returns and none of the factors mean much. Just keep climbing.
My goals aren't so lofty so I quit reaching a while ago. The components listed in my system have been mainstays for a while. I have tried to move up and have spent considerable $$ experimenting. Haven't found the magic yet so maybe for my circumstance I am at that point of diminishing returns.

[KeithA]

Yep, too many factors to consider amongst individuals who are very different...

But, some will spend $$ galore searching for the Holy Grail.....

Most won't, to them it's just an empty cup

I see nothing wrong with either approach as long as you do it for your own reasons.

(But to simplify things, I'd argue that once you cross the bridge from mid-fi to hi-fi, diminishing returns kick in for most people)

Keith

[brucek]

I feel that once your system is considered high-end (and I suppose that's another debatable point), that your money should be directed at room acoustics. There's far more return in acoustic treatment than in more expensive electronics.

I personally doubt there is any real improvement in sound once your system contains high-end electronics. Audiophiles cringe when anyone mentions specifications, but any perceived improvement is unlikely once the specs reach a certain level. I'd debate that anyone can truly hear the difference between an Bryston ST amp and a SST or SST2 model - yet most audiophiles here would tell you different. The specs say otherwise.

A change in room treatments would offer far more return...

brucek

[danman]

I will go as far as saying that I know some that seem to never be satisfied no matter what their financial situation! I think that you sometimes have to draw the point somewhere as to sitting down and actually listening to the music instead of the electronics!

We are all always looking for that little improvement in sound that can sometimes occur more from a little tweaking then actually spending 10k more for a 5% Improvement! Recently I had the great chance to listen to the exact system James had at the Montreal Audio show in April at Son Ideal in Montreal. Obviously I was extremely impressed especially with the 28B amps but when I got home, I realized that even though I have the same system (basically) in a more condensed form, I was not really missing that much. Overall, I had the Bryston and Martin Logan sound which is my taste! To be honest, I would buy the amps before the speakers as I think that would really change my preference in sound more that just a speaker in this case!

I am very satisfied with what I have and am more into tweaking my room at this point. I could afford more but at what real improvement? The future for me sees 2 7BSST2"s as my speakers are a total rebuild with all new panels, crossovers and woofers along with custom cabinets that I adore especially for the luscious mids that the Quest is known for that even the CLX did not surpass in my opinion!

Brucek, as for your comment concerning the differences between the different amps, I tend to NOT agree with you! Having a speaker that can sometimes give amps a hard time, I can tell you with fact that my SST2 model outdoes my older ST easily. But I also agree with your fact about room treatments as being one of the single most overlooked facts in audio. I have spent so much time adjusting my room to my system instead of the opposite that the differences have been wonderful.

[95Dyna]

The Law of Diminishing Returns is a defined concept in the world of economics.  It has nothing to do with what resources one has, what one's priorities are or one's personal situation.  Economics can get very complex but this concept is not.  It simpley states that there is a point where the amount of money being spent is no longer directly proportional to the performance of what is being purchased.  Put another way it is the point at which the relationship becomes inversely proportional.  In hi end audio we call this point the "sweet spot" in a product line or an industry product grouping.  Using an example from other posts and other threads in this circle it has been said by no less than one of our most esteemed members, drummermitchell (who has both 28's and 7's), that the 7B SST2 will give you 95% of what you get from the 28B.  The 28B is 100% more expensive than the 7B.  You are paying 100% more to get a 5% increase in performance which puts you way past the point of diminishing returns whether you make $500K or $50K per year.    Now, whether the extra 5% is worth the 100% extra cost to you personally is another subject.

[Laundrew]

The Law of Diminishing Returns is a defined concept in the world of economics.  It has nothing to do with what resources one has, what one's priorities are or one's personal situation.  Economics can get very complex but this concept is not.  It simpley states that there is a point where the amount of money being spent is no longer directly proportional to the performance of what is being purchased.  Put another way it is the point at which the relationship becomes inversely proportional.  In hi end audio we call this point the "sweet spot" in a product line or an industry product grouping.  Using an example from other posts and other threads in this circle it has been said by no less than one of our most esteemed members, drummermitchell (who has both 28's and 7's), that the 7B SST2 will give you 95% of what you get from the 28B.  The 28B is 100% more expensive than the 7B.  You are paying 100% more to get a 5% increase in performance which puts you way past the point of diminishing returns whether you make $500K or $50K per year.    Now, whether the extra 5% is worth the 100% extra cost to you personally is another subject.

Flawless reasoning and well said

[James Tanner]

I usually say when you stop hearing a positive difference stop spending.

james

[vegasdave]

That makes sense.

[werd]

I will go as far as saying that I know some that seem to never be satisfied no matter what their financial situation! I think that you sometimes have to draw the point somewhere as to sitting down and actually listening to the music instead of the electronics!

We are all always looking for that little improvement in sound that can sometimes occur more from a little tweaking then actually spending 10k more for a 5% Improvement! Recently I had the great chance to listen to the exact system James had at the Montreal Audio show in April at Son Ideal in Montreal. Obviously I was extremely impressed especially with the 28B amps but when I got home, I realized that even though I have the same system (basically) in a more condensed form, I was not really missing that much. Overall, I had the Bryston and Martin Logan sound which is my taste! To be honest, I would buy the amps before the speakers as I think that would really change my preference in sound more that just a speaker in this case!

I am very satisfied with what I have and am more into tweaking my room at this point. I could afford more but at what real improvement? The future for me sees 2 7BSST2"s as my speakers are a total rebuild with all new panels, crossovers and woofers along with custom cabinets that I adore especially for the luscious mids that the Quest is known for that even the CLX did not surpass in my opinion!
Brucek, as for your comment concerning the differences between the different amps, I tend to NOT agree with you! Having a speaker that can sometimes give amps a hard time, I can tell you with fact that my SST2 model outdoes my older ST easily. But I also agree with your fact about room treatments as being one of the single most overlooked facts in audio. I have spent so much time adjusting my room to my system instead of the opposite that the differences have been wonderful.

Hello

Yes what you are sayng danman is what i think too. People somehow get lost in the upgrade path of their electronics alone. and eventually feel shorted by or dissappointed as the more money input doesnt always sactisfy ones expectations. The Holy Trinity of hi-fi needs to be address. That being the electronics, the 120v ac supply and room acoustics. Electronics alone doesnt tell the whole story of whats capable in your house. Even 2 out of 3 the holy trinity  can leave one feeling like you hit a brick wall in terms of improvement. All 3 have to be apart  of the equation to get the most for your money and most important.... sactisfaction. I have the electronics and 120vac covered and dont see the point of spending anymore until my room acoustics catch up.....