[TRM]

I lucked into a great deal on a rega p1 with glass platter a little over a year ago and have been very happy with my introduction into vinyl. I added a2m red cart and really enjoy the rig. I find myself listening to my record collection far more than my cds and thats been steady for sometime now.

I'm looking at taking my entire rig up from the relatively intro level gear I now have to some more mid-level gear. For purposes of this thread I'm interested in what you guys think of the tt's in the $2,000 - $2,500 price range. I'd like to do table and arm in one purchase and understand that I'll be upgrading my amp, phono and speakers - piece by piece.

The Avid DIVA II caught my eye (though its at the top end of the budget), the VPI Scout II is a popular table. I don't see much on the Clearaudio tables. The Rega P7 is more than I want to spend and I don't like the looks of the deck, for this kind of cash I want something that I think looks great too.

Obviously there are a lot of decks out there. In this price range what are your experiences?

[vinylphilemag]

Although I've not heard it, the new(ish) VPI Classic is supposed to be pretty good.  There are a couple of Clearaudios in your price range, as is the Marantz TT (essentially, a rebadged Clearaudio).  Don't forget Pro-Ject and Music Hall too.

PS I'm with you on the "gotta look cool" front!

[Scottdazzle]

Based on my extreme satisfaction with the VPI Classic I'd recommend the best VPI you can afford.  There are a couple Scoutmasters on Audiogon for $1800 which I would buy if I were in the market and couldn't swing $2500 plus cartridge for the Classic.   

[woodsyi]

I would go for the Classic.  I think the combo is a bargain when you add the arm.  I have to come over and listen to yours soon. 

[mike1964]

Well Tempered Amadeus would be a phenomenal step up, and maybe a lasting one.  Great reviews, very simple without constant fiddle or adjustment so Rega-like in that manner, but just out of your price range at $2800, unless you could find a dealer willing to negotiate a bit. 

[toobluvr]

My best advice......buy used!     

Doesn't matter what model you settle on, the buck bang will always be better.

For your $2500 budget you will get a setup that lists for about $5k.

Or for a $2500 list rig, you will pay about $1300.

[ricmon]

I can't knock the Classic reccomendation but you can also concider the Pro-Ject RM10. 

[vinylphilemag]

My best advice......buy used!     

Doesn't matter what model you settle on, the buck bang will always be better.

For other stuff, I agree.  But I'd always be dubious about buying a TT used, unless the seller had a very good rep and/or had the original packaging.  Who knows how much damage the bearing suffer if improperly shipped?

[toobluvr]

OK...so I'll add a qualifier.

Buy used carefully!

 

Ideally, buy locally.  This way you can inspect it thoroughly and there is no exposure to shipping damage.

[MaxCast]

I'm going to go against the grain and your question and suggest you take a look at your speakers.  IMO, doubling up on speaker performance would yield greater benefit.

[vinylphilemag]

OK...so I'll add a qualifier.

Buy used carefully!

 

Ideally, buy locally.  This way you can inspect it thoroughly and there is no exposure to shipping damage.

Agreed; with those caveats in place, buying a used TT is a good way to either save money or (better) get more for the same money.

[mike1964]

For other stuff, I agree.  But I'd always be dubious about buying a TT used, unless the seller had a very good rep and/or had the original packaging.  Who knows how much damage the bearing suffer if improperly shipped?

Very good advice.  I demo'd a pre-owned Rega P9 once (from a dealer that they had taken in trade) and it just didn't sound that great.  Turns out the bearing had been run dry and it was ruined.  If that had been a deal over the 'net I might have been stuck.

[Leegross]

Here's my opinion - I like the used idea as well since buying new gets you skinned in this hobby, but the VPI Classic is in your price range.  I've been using the Classic for a few months and I'm very pleased.  Harry Pearson of TAS is using one right now which says a lot to me.  He gave a pair of Precise speakers a good word twenty years ago, they were an inexpensive line at the time but did some things very, very well.  I bought on his word and enjoyed them for a long time.  If he thinks the Classic (at $2500) is a reference table (within limitations of course) I'm sold.  My local dealer who sold me the Classic is no slouch himself at knowing good fundamentals in equipment.  He thinks the Classic will be a Classic.  Not saying it's the best, even in it's price range.  Just saying it's a pretty solid beast.

[TRM]

First of all, thanks to all - great stuff in this thread.

I'm going to go against the grain and your question and suggest you take a look at your speakers.  IMO, doubling up on speaker performance would yield greater benefit.

I agree, I'm going to upgrade everything over the next 12+ months or so. Speakers and turntable/phono are up first, then on to amp/pre and my digital source. I love my system for what it is and am very proud of what I've patched together but its time to move up.

[Browntrout]

My advice if you are changing everything is to think it through thoroughly. If you buy turntable phonostage and speakers first then you will not be getting best synergy.
  The turntable, arm and cartridge then phonostage should be looked at as one part and chosen with each other in mind.
  The amplifiers, speakers and room are the other section that should be considered as one. Hope this is of some help.

P.S Try and answer these questions before you buy your table... Do I prefer the sound of unipivot tonearms or gimbal tonearms? Do I prefer the sound of moving coil carts or moving iron carts?
  If you can buy a table that has been designed with a matching arm then all the better in my opinion.

[jrtrent]

I'm going to upgrade everything over the next 12+ months or so. Speakers and turntable/phono are up first, then on to amp/pre and my digital source. I love my system for what it is and am very proud of what I've patched together but its time to move up.

In the August issue of Affordable Audio there was an interesting reference to flat earth vs. round earth priorities when assembling a stereo system, with flat earth people being primarily concerned with the construction of music, its rhythm and tune (Ivor Tiefenbrun defined music as "a set of coherent, intelligible, predictable variations in pitch with respect to time") while round earthers concentrate more on frequency extension, soundstaging, detail resolution, and tonality. 

None of those are bad, of course, but at any price point it seems one has to make choices on what's most important, and often the flat earth and round earth values seem to be mutually exclusive.  For example, Rega 'tables excel at rhythmic expression, and there are many who would happily take a P5 over anything offered by VPI or Sota (or Basis or Teres or Clearaudio) regardless of price, describing them as sonically impressive but musically lethargic.  If you're assembling a new system, you might want to consider the sonic goals each designer had in mind and whether all the pieces will work together toward a common end or be a mishmash of conflicting ideals that sounds a mess.

One turntable in your price range that seems to have a good balance of flat earth and round earth qualities is the VPI Scout.  Art Dudley reviewed the Scout for Stereophile and said it played music better than the more expensive Aries.  He commented on the Scout's ability to convey intricate rhythms and temporal shadings, saying, "In other words, the VPI combo did something that I used to consider the sole province of such generally low-mass, generally undamped British record players as the Linns, Roksans, Pink Triangles, and Regas: The VPI played music, and did so convincingly."  At the same time, the Scout also offered more substantial bass and a bigger sound stage with better separation of voices and instruments than his reference Linn/Naim combination.

Whether the Scout II offers that same mix of strengths I couldn't say; I haven't compared them.  In their description, VPI claims improvements such as "a full and rich sound, with a vast soundstage and increased resolution and detail," but no mention of the deck's capabilities in terms of pace, rhythm and timing, which are at the heart of the flat earth approach.

Edit:  I posted much of what follows in a thread last February, but it gives an example of component choice in building a system, though probably at a lower level than you're shooting for.

25 years ago I started to assemble a hi-fi system (I had had What was then called a mid-fi system--BIC 960, Pioneer integrated amp, EPI speakers--for about eight years, and wanted to step up to something better).  What quickly became apparent is that there are different approaches to sound, and you can't necessarily get "everything" at your budget limits.  Most important to me were that the system convey the tune, rhythm, pace, and dynamics of the music; these to me, at the time, were the most important criteria.  I didn't care as much about image localization, soundstage width/height/depth, frequency extremes, or the "etched" detail that some products catered to.  I ended up with an all Linn system (LP12/Ittok/LK1/LK2/Saras) that met my needs well.  In that system, a Rega or Roksan turntable would work well, but not a VPI or SOTA--not that there's anything wrong with those products; they just have different strengths that didn't match my system goals.  Same with the electronics (Naim or Exposure would slip in nicely, probably not VTL or Conrad Johnson) and speakers (Epos yes, Vandersteen no).

Time, circumstances, and tastes change.  I'm now in a small apartment instead of a house, and I appreciate a rich tonality even at low volumes and a soundstage that has some sense of depth with more precise/stable localization of instruments.  I'm getting great satisfaction listening mostly to chamber music at soft volumes with a Well Tempered Record Player, Grado cartridge, Van Alstine electronics and Vandersteen speakers.  Some of the Linn components that made me happy for over 20 years would be out of place in my current system, not because they're bad, but because they have different strengths.  I think determining the kind of sound that will satisfy you needs to precede, or at least go hand-in-hand with, component choice.

[TRM]

jrtrent, Thanks for that post, that really gets to the heart of the question for me and anyone else shopping for gear. Namely, what are your sonic goals and tastes.

[bacobits1]

In my situation I was losing interest playing my Vinyl. Why? Who knows?
It's back now big time.

At the same time did you read the review Art Dudley did on the Rega P5 and P7 In Stereophile? It all comes down to what you prefer. See my Rega P5 comments here.
I am no newbie, I have had at least 15 tables in 30 years of screwing with this stuff and a fair amount of gear which doesn't make me an expert but I know when I'm moved. I'm moved now more than with my last 2 tables. Being the Basis and the VPI.
I like that analogy of "flat earth" and "round earth" priorities.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70935.msg664157;topicseen#new

D

[tybee]

Den,

It's good to hear you are enjoying vinyl again.  Recently, I heard several remastered classic LPs recorded as 45s, and sound was jaw dropping for me. It is a close to live as I have heard in my 40 plus years of this audiophoolishness.  During the same listening party, the 45LPs were compared to a high end pc/dac system, and the vinyl was miles ahead of the pc playback. While I am not trying to start a digital/analogue war here, it opened my eyes again that the grass is not always greener in this hobby.  These days setting up a good pc/dac system is not inexpensive, so I think I will invest in some remastered LPs at 45 and enjoy the music.

[twitch54]

.  Who knows how much damage the bearing suffer if improperly shipped?

While true it really only apllies if the shipper is a complete "dunderhead", for one would have to seperate platter from tt in order to utilize original packaging.