Finest Chinese Tube Preamp?

88man · « **on:** 28 Aug 2009, 01:29 am »

I am trying to decide on a fine Chinese preamp. My goal is add a different palate of sound to my existing SS Odyssey preamp and amp. I am looking for:

-neutral tonality for classical
-extended bass and airy highs
-3D, wide soundstage,
-big tone, rich harmonics
-detail without glare
-smooth and refined without being rolled off.

I like the 6SN7 topology over the 12A*7 based designs. I've always been intrigued by tubes. I think it's better and even less expensive to buy a Chinese preamp instead of building a DIY project like the Blue Velvet or shine7.com 6922-based preamp, or the 6DJ8 based MC-02, etc., especially when considering the chassis build, layout, and support components. I don't mind making modifications later, like cap upgrades, tube rolling, pwr supply, silver wire, etc...

Questions:

1. What is/are the finest Chinese preamps?...

2. How has been your experience ordering from Cattylink?... Even with high shipping, it's cheaper than ordering from U.S.

3. I am considering the Ming Da MC-7R MkII and the MC-2A3. Which preamp will yield better sonics?...
MC-7R MkII: 5U4G, (4) 6SN7
MC-2A3: (2) 2A3, EL34, (3) 6SN7

4. Any advice, recommendations, experiences, or mods would be appreciated.

Thanks!

JoshK · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 Aug 2009, 01:43 am »

No comment to your original question, I've not tried any, but if you are going to mod the preamp, I'd put extra points on whether it is point to point vs PCB.

88man · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 Aug 2009, 02:05 am »

Hi JoshK, both preamps are point-to-point wired, otherwise, I wouldn't consider buying one. Since I already have (2) NOS Sylvania 6SN7GTB black base and (2) NOS RCA 6SN7GT smoked glass tubes, it would be nice to roll out the stock Chinese tubes.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Aug 2009, 02:26 am »

I suggest to you the PrimaLuna Prologue3, it uses a 12AX7/12AT7/5AR4 that you do not like, but it is beautifully done, is dual mono(have two power supplies) and you may not know it cost only $1600 at UpScale Audio. Have you think in a used one?
Just a idea!

JackD201 · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Aug 2009, 03:01 am »

88man,

If you're looking for point to point, premium parts, simple circuit, 6sn7, super tube roll friendly, very simple to mod but already has good sonics at a very reasonable price I suggest you try the VTV Ultra Sonic Line Stage from Vacuum Tube Valley. I'm not too hot on it's looks but the sound is big and bold. It is selling brand new for less than a grand. My JE Labs 300B sounded like it grew 20 more watts. I've tried it with solid state amps too with no problems. It's a great starting point for anybody who wants to experiment without having to worry about breaking the bank and the buyer's remorse that often follows.

Oh, and for the sound you're looking for I would recommend using Tungsol 6sn7 GTBs with this preamp. Skip the Brimars, these are way too warm in this preamp.

Jack

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Aug 2009, 01:23 pm »

I believe Mapleshade audio uses 6SN7 in alot of designs. And don't forget our own Niteshade audio. He LOVES the 6SN7 for preamps.

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Aug 2009, 03:43 pm »

Oooops! I meant MapleTree audio. But do go to Mapleshade audio for some music!

88man · « **Reply #7 on:** 29 Aug 2009, 04:53 am »

Thanks everyone for the good ideas. If I find a quality tube preamp that is commensurate with price, then I am all for it! As an American, I definitely support domestic labor and U.S. products. As a first tube preamp, I thought it would be nice to get an inexpensive Chinese, or perhaps an American Preamp that I can modify for now, instead of building one from scratch like the Blue Velvet or the SE KT88 design, since it would cost almost the same ~ around $700 and there is no guarantee that the circuit will work if I am building it. After modifying and reworking on an existing design I would hope to learn a lot from the experience.

Fullrangeman, PrimaLuna looks nice, but I am concerned about the high output impedance of 3.5k ohms going into my Odyssey Amp which has 22k ohms at the inputs. Jack, the VTV sounds very intriguing for a grand. Ericus, The Maple Tree Ultra 4SE looks promising too...

Thanks again, guys! I'll be looking into the American sites you've listed for my new ideas.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 Aug 2009, 01:31 pm »

Hello 88man

The MC-7 has always been a very good unit. I would not recommend buying it direct from China as you never know what you will get. The Ming-Da MC-7 MKII is not yet available in the US and again, do not recommend buying from China. Pacific Valve is the only US distributor.

The 2A3 is also an outstanding piece but do not use the 6SN7 Globe tubes that you see in all the pictures. They are problematic and their cool look is not worth the problems they cause.

Both units take well to upgrades and tube rolling.

88man · « **Reply #9 on:** 30 Aug 2009, 12:05 am »

Jack, the topology in the VTV Ultra Sonic Line Stage is really appealing. I wish there was more info or reviews on it on the web. Is it sonically comparable to a deHavilland Ultraverve, which uses the same topology?...

Thanks Bill for the heads up info.

I just bought a pair of NOS testing Sylvania 6SN7-GTB (black plates, yellow label) since I couldn't resist them @ $14 ea. I can't wait to roll them in a new preamp...

doug s. · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 Aug 2009, 05:52 am »

Quote from: 88man on 28 Aug 2009, 01:29 am

...I am looking for:

-neutral tonality for classical
-extended bass and airy highs
-3D, wide soundstage,
-big tone, rich harmonics
-detail without glare
-smooth and refined without being rolled off....

if you added "excellent dynamics" to your list, you would have the description of my melos ma333r, and its single-chassis iteration, the sha gold-r.

depending on budget, i would be looking for one of these used. max $1k for a sha gold-r in excellent shape, mebbe a little more if modded. ma333r's can go as low as $1k (older units w/o remote), or $2k or more for excellent condition modded units. and, the designer mark porzilli is going to be offering refurb/mods for melos soon.

doug s.

JackD201 · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 Aug 2009, 06:59 am »

Quote from: 88man on 30 Aug 2009, 12:05 am

Jack, the topology in the VTV Ultra Sonic Line Stage is really appealing. I wish there was more info or reviews on it on the web. Is it sonically comparable to a deHavilland Ultraverve, which uses the same topology?...

They look similar don't they? In fact a lot of folks think the VTV is a clone which really isn't the case. The topology seems to be quite different. The deHavilland uses 2x6AH4 cathode followers and only one 6SN7 as the signal yube. The VTV on the other hand uses two 6SN7s and a rectifier tube. I really am not sure how the twin triodes split their duties. That's as far as I can go about the topology since I have never tried building a preamp or anything else electronic on my own for fear of burning down the house with my lousy soldering skills. The reason I was never inspired to actually go and study circuit design.

The VTV definitely has the big tone you're looking for. I don't do any business whatsoever with VTV but it is always something I recommend to tube newbies particularly those that are on a budget and use small monitor speakers. Doug S.'s Sylvanias are great tubes too by the way. Clear and extended. PM Amandarae for more 6sn7 recommendations depending on the voice you're looking for. The guy has been through the whole mill. SET, High Power SS, Digital Amps, Planars, OBs, box speakers, name it. More importantly he has good ears an open mind and eclectic musical tastes.

Aside from rolling the 6SN7s I've found that rolling the rectifier tubes can change the flavor a lot too. Mine currently has a 5y3GT coke bottle in place of the stock 5ar4s. It really is a nice little preamp to play around with and a snap to modify as well. A friend has loaded his with Mundorf Gold caps and another guy with V-Cap TFTFs. Yet another went with silver vintage hookup wire from a military surplus store in LA. Again not bad for a grand which these days is the price of a power cable.

playntheblues · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Aug 2009, 01:53 pm »

If you are going to send your money to China you better do it soon as prices will quickly reach para-die with the US and then you will have no advantage sending your money over seas. You will be forced to help you own economy (imagine that).

88man · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Aug 2009, 05:10 pm »

Thanks Jack, Doug, and Playtheblues. It's interesting, Doug, that you mentioned dynamics because I had originally listed it, but decided to delete it. After hearing several opinions on the subject and realizing now that there are in fact U.S. tube preamps, I'll most likely go with the domestic route! It's a no brainer in terms of service, support, and reliability. Now the title of the thread seems passe already...

The part of the allure of getting into tube for me is the ability to tailor the sound. I am basically looking for a palate of sound that is apart from my existing SS system - 3D soundstage, rich harmonics, big tone, airy highs, detail without an etched sound, and liquid smooth without losing any nuances. But, I don't want a design with narrow bandwidth, e.g. lean bass and rolled off highs.

I am not sure which of the preamps will best convey the above qualities: VTV Ultra Sonic Line Stage, Mapletree 2A, or Melos MA333R?....

Tyson · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Aug 2009, 05:17 pm »

Mapletree 2a is what I have (and I've owned a lot of tubed equipment), and it's got a large # of tubes you can roll in it, the rectifier and the line tubes both have a pretty significant impact on the sound. Plus, it's got a 6v to 12v switch on the back, so you can also switch between 6sn7's and 12sn7's (and 12sx7's).

doug s. · « **Reply #15 on:** 30 Aug 2009, 08:17 pm »

Quote from: 88man on 30 Aug 2009, 05:10 pm

...I am not sure which of the preamps will best convey the above qualities: VTV Ultra Sonic Line Stage, Mapletree 2A, or Melos MA333R?....

i have not heard these other preamps, so i cannot comment on their sound. in my system, i only compared rogue 99 magnum, and cary slp-98l w/the melos. the rogue was not even a contender; the cary was nice, but the melos was significantly better in all respects. my first foray into tubes was a few years before; i tried an arc sp9mkll; i went w/a solid state electrocompaniet preamp instead. the sp9mkll was extremely slow sounding; i would have kept the adcom gfp-1a i was using at the time, if those were my only choices. when i tried the melos/rogue/cary pre's, i was using a linn kairn. the melos was the only one that equaled and/or added to the linn's strengths - neutrality, timing and extension; while significantly bettering it in dynamics, tonal texture and soundstaging.

also, i am now spoiled by remote-control wolume - i wouldn't consider purchasing a pre w/o it. and, i like having a tape loop - this allows me to use my dbx 3bx dynamic range expander when i want, w/o it being in the signal path when it's not in use. the melos sha-gold-r and ma333r are true full function preamps. don't shy away from an sha-gold-r if you stumble across one - its only difference w/the ma333r is the ma333r has dual-mono construction. (one of the mods for it is to conwert its balance pot to the left channel wolume pot, giving 100% dual mono performance w/separate wolume pots for each channel.) the sha-gold-r is still an excellent sounding pre, imo...

doug s.

213Cobra · « **Reply #16 on:** 1 Sep 2009, 08:34 pm »

The best Chinese preamp I know of is the Melody 1688. In fact, it may be the best preamp I've ever heard by anyone in any country-of-origin. I certainly thought so when I was listening to it and I only say as a precaution that perhaps it is in the top three or so at any price. You may have to find a source outside the US. It was available a few years ago for around $5,000. Everything from the 6sn7/101 circuit to the build and components quality to the fit and finish is outstanding. No remote control so you have to get off your butt to change source or volume but at that SQ, so what. Stellar.

Phil

JackD201 · « **Reply #17 on:** 2 Sep 2009, 04:57 am »

I thought Melody was an Australian company that has units SKD' from China from the same outfit that does amps for Genesis Loudspeakers. Regardless, I agree that fit and finish are indeed top notch. Downright beautiful in fact. I owned a Melody KT88 integrated some time back which I got cherry for get this, $900. My father in law took a shine to it though so I gave it to him as a birthday present lest he demand his daughter back

The Mapletrees from Canada definitely look promising. Glad I heard about it through this thread. I hope to get to actually hear one someday.

213Cobra · « **Reply #18 on:** 2 Sep 2009, 07:06 am »

Melody design is done in Australia, but the preamp is made in China, and certainly its design is the result of collaboration between designer intent and what the chosen manufacturer in China can produce. It is for all intents and purposes a Chinese preamp, if that matters. The 1688 is among the best at any price from anywhere.

Phil

Casouza · « **Reply #19 on:** 8 Sep 2009, 08:12 am »

Phil, regarding the Melody preamp, where can one buy 101D tubes for a reasonable price?