[Ambiance]

I just purchased a pair of VR4SR MKII Anniversary, and I can not make them play as I want to.

I have a dip in a frq range between 35Hz to 55HZ at 9DB. For me thats a lot. The room is 5mX6mX2,5m, maybe the room is to small for this speakers? I am also considering replaceing my Pass Labs 250.5 with Mcintosh 501 amps, but I do not know if this will help me much?





A.

[richidoo]

No your room is not too small. A smaller room increases the bass SPL if you ignore the reflection modes. So a dip can only be caused by a null created by a bass mode. 9dB dip is actually not too bad for a home listening room, so make sure you are not using smoothed data. There may be higher Q modes lurking if you are smoothing your data. I checked your room dimensions with Realtrap.com's modecalc application. It did not show any particularly bad modes in that range, but there are some minor ones.

Measure the room exactly in cm and check modecalc for more precise insight.
http://www.realtraps.com/modecalc.htm

More info:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

Changing the amps will not change the acoustics of the room.

Your speakers are very close to the front wall, and very close to sidewalls. This could easilyt acount for your problem.  Have you experimented with moving them? You have a lot of room for movement without interfering with screen vision.  Speaker placement is a fine art and movements as small as 1/16" can radically change the bass performance. Read about "Master Set" on AC. Also Google "Wilson Audio Speaker Placement" and pick up a copy of Jim Smith's "Get better sound" which describes a good speaker placement procedure. I had good luck with the Master Set system.

[McTwins]

Hi
Your room is not small, it's ok. I would also start to move the speakers further away from the side wall and the back wall. Approximately 1,5 meters from the side wall and 1,5 meters from the back wall is a good starting point.

I would also treat the first reflection point with diffusers on the side wall and ad four Helmholtz absorbers in each corners, that will do the trick.

These guys can help you, http://www.performanceacousticslabs.com/PAL/Home-Acoustics_Listening_Rooms.html

Thanks

[jimdgoulding]

What McT and Richi said.  No foolin.

[JackD201]

I heartily agree, switch places with the subwoofers and pull your speakers out 2 feet to start with. I'm guessing the dip will move from 35 to 55 down to maybe 25 to 35 instead at your measuring/listening position. By the way, your room looks stunning.

[Ambiance]

Thank you all for reply.

This is what I have tried:
- As you noticed the subwoofers and front speakers placement was not the best way. I have a different placement now, and that helpt the dip some. It vent from 12db to 9db.
-With and without spikes. Spikes on flatenout the dip with 1db.
-Helmholtz. Two in the rear corners tuned to 35hz and 40hz both at the same time helped 1db.
-Basstraps. Did not help at all at wanted frq as I espected. But it helped on flutter.
-I am in progress with some diffusors on the sidewalls behind the DVD cabinets to work on rear first refleksion.
-I am also planing on rebuilding rear wall refleksion behind sweetspot. This is where I want Helmholtz to do its job. And this is where I had best effect of it.



A.
 

[JLM]

Yes, pull those speakers away from front and side walls.

Treat all first reflection points (front wall, side walls, rear wall, and ceiling) with absorption.

Pull listening position ahead.

When you've done all you can with the room and subwoofers, try EQ.

[bpape]

Agreed. The problem may be partially due to your seating position.  You appear to be pretty far back in the room.

Bryan

[FullRangeMan]

I just purchased a pair of VR4SR MKII Anniversary, and I can not make them play as I want to.
I have a dip in a frq range between 35Hz to 55HZ at 9DB. For me thats a lot. The room is 5mX6mX2,5m, maybe the room is to small for this speakers? I am also considering replaceing my Pass Labs 250.5 with Mcintosh 501 amps, but I do not know if this will help me much?

The room is 5mX6mX2,5m, maybe the room is to small for this speakers?  You kidding? Your room is wooonderful... Congratulations!!

[Ambiance]

If I pull my speakers further away from front wall, there will be no bass at sweetspot. You see the front wall is fully dampend, and the wall on the sides of the screen is angeled innvords from screen, function like a diffusor.
The frontbaffle of the speakers are now aprox 1,5 meters from frontwall. The placement they have now is where they perfom best on 3D effects and plays the most open.

The roof is dampened as well with low frq peroforated panels, but I think maybe some more dampening in the roof can help a bit on ekko.

A.

[sts9fan]

If I pull my speakers further away from front wall, there will be no bass at sweetspot.

really? why?  Have you tried it?  I have never seen anyone reccomend a speaker like that so close to the walls. 

[richidoo]

Set the speakers in a reasonable spot, with woofer different distances from floor, side and front walls. No closer than 2 ft to walls. I suggest tweeter 5 feet from front, 3 feet from side.  Then move the chair on room center axis to get the smoothest bass possible, using a music track with slow acoustic bass so you can hear each note. You will not believe the huge difference moving the seat makes. It is the most important setting of a stereo setup. Then fine tune the speakers front to back to get smoothest bass. Then left to right by a small amount if necessary to cure remaining errant bass notes. Then test with RTA to see the result. It maters more how it sounds than how it looks. You can't get perfection, so forget about flat.

Bass treatments like absorbers and resonators work best at close distance to the speaker. Absorbers have to be very very thick to have any effect at that low frequency. If you need treatment after the positioning, then it must be tuned for the target freq.

[Ambiance]

I guess I can say I am in final tweak of the setup. The possition the speakers have now are the best that I can achieve in my room. But the issue is that I miss a bit on the bass sound vise, and I am wondering if any body has compared pass labs (250.5) VS Mcintosh 501?.

There is another thing that comes to an effect with my speakers. These are one of only two pairs ever made in the VR4SR Anniversary series. This have VR5SR filter components, and I do not know what this does to the sound effect on them comperared to regular VR4SR Anniversary? May be they just lack bass?  That is why I ask if the Mcintosh will help a bit on my bass issues?! Does the Mcintosh push litle more on the lower frq?

A.

[ceedee]

Dear Ambiance,

Your room looks nice.
It looks bigger than the measurements you give us, result of the optical.
Your room is a bit 'over dampt' by the damping on the walls and ceiling.
Since the VSA speakers use the room acoustics usually I can imagine you are having this problem.
Now you have to force the speakers to give you the full information.
As seen on the pictures in the upper VR 4 SR versus item I also have pair of VR 4 SR mk II Anniversary.
I have quite the same situation and experience.

You can walk two ways.

1. Redesign your room-acoustics with less damping so the VR 4 SR can easy act more natural. ( I prefer this option)

2. Use a powerful amplifier that controls the speaker in the room and also you can use a digital room corrector by Audessey for example.
    As amplifier I can recommend you the KR Kronzilla DXL.
   

Good luck.

Cor

[Rocket]

Hi,

I wouldn't throw good money away on another amplifier unless I heard it in my room.  A new amplifier may provide a little different presentation for your system but I'm not sure it will fix the bass issues that you have. 

Have you thought about changing your subwoofers if you have bass problems.  You have received pretty good advice so far.  The pass labs amp that you have is a pretty special amplifier in its own right.

Regards

Rod

[Ambiance]

One more thing that I have issues with is the 20Hz. That frq is not audioable in my room at all. Does anybody else have the same experience with VR4SR? When I listen to musik I do not use subwoofers, I`d like the front speakers to do the job.

Cor.

Thank you for tip. But I don`t think tube amp is the way to go, I have tryed Ayon Audio Typhon on my speakers and they where a bit more laidback than Pass labs on the bass, but more fwd on the midrange, but very musikal tough.

A.

[es347]

I own the VR5 Anniversaries and in my room, they drop off substantially at 20hz.  I have moved things around a lot and the present configuration seems about as good as it can be...which is great by the way.  I haven't found many recordings that actually contain freqs a the 20hz level so I don't worry about it.  Regarding tube amps, I have heard my speakers driven by $45K WAVAC monoblocks and the low end was nonexistent.  Stay with SS amps if you enjoy a solid low end.  As I have said before, p-n junctions are a beautiful thing.

By the way, what model BenQ FP do you have?  Nice room!

[ceedee]

Dear Ambiance and Gavin,

The Kronzilla DXL is not just a ordinary tube-amp.
It is a rare hybrid combination of Triode and Mossfet and Micro-processing.

This DXL can not be compared with normal tube-amps you mentioned.

The DXL uses a quad of T 1610 at 150 wpc. with extreme powerful dynamics and control at low freq.

Here in Europe this system is one of the most popular amps at the moment.
We launced the DXL in Munich this year driving the Unifield II playing in a hudge hall.
See: http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/munich09/27.html

If you reed French look at this link:

http://www.elfbi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=889&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60&sid=9ffa13844fcfb8eb7168cac118ee442a

Regards,

Cor

[es347]

Hey Cor,

Yes I agree that some hybrid amps are capable of respectable bass.  Nice picture of you with your coffee.  For a moment there I thought the second picture was of four coffee makers only to realize it was actually a picture of the Kronzillas

[ceedee]

Thanks Gavin,

We call them the revival of the milk bottle.
Question is do you like milk in your coffee?

Cor