Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?

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VOLKS

Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?
« on: 20 Aug 2009, 07:36 am »
I have a 4BST2/BP 26MM/MC.........what are the pro's/cons of plugging both into a Surge Protector/Line Conditioner?Should i do it at all or should i just plug the Pre Amp into the Surge protector/line conditioner and leave the Amp plugged ito a regular wall plug??.......Why does Bryston reccomend not plugging their amps into a surge protector/line condtioner when it promotes the brand Torus?Im confused...please help.

KeithA

Re: Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?
« Reply #1 on: 20 Aug 2009, 09:18 am »
I have a 4BST2/BP 26MM/MC.........what are the pro's/cons of plugging both into a Surge Protector/Line Conditioner?Should i do it at all or should i just plug the Pre Amp into the Surge protector/line conditioner and leave the Amp plugged ito a regular wall plug??.......Why does Bryston reccomend not plugging their amps into a surge protector/line condtioner when it promotes the brand Torus?Im confused...please help.

Typically, surge protectors/power conditioners are likely to limit current. This means that at some times it may starve a robust piece of equipment, like say an high current amplifier, and not allow it to work to its full potential.

This is why Bryton historically recomennded not going this route.

However, if you read the literature on the Torus, it dos its duty in a mnanner that does not limit current and actually gives the ability for higher instantaneous current. In theory, this allows an amplifier to draw extremely high instantaneous current to be able to meet its transient needs. This current draw is across part of the cycle.

So, a unit like the Torus will lkely clean up your power and should give tighter bass if the amplifier has the ability to deliver the goods. Now, the amount one notices the improvement will depend on the individual. Also, nothing wrong with a great surge protector if one has some high priced gear :wink:

I recommend reading the Torus literature to get a sense of what its all about. I bought one after seeing a review and the reading the literaure...along with input from a few people on the forum...including James.
Keith

James Tanner

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Re: Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?
« Reply #2 on: 20 Aug 2009, 11:05 am »
TORUS POWER ISOLATION UNIT

The concern Bryston had with a lot of power line conditioners available in the market was that many of them could restrict the current available to the amplifier. An amplifier can draw very high peak current, and wants to 'see' a very low impedance high current source from the power line. In fact, we even stated in our owners manuals not to plug our amplifiers into power conditioners. The Transformer based line conditioners we tested were too small to supply the peak current required and many of them were just Filters and did not provide Isolation -(Isolation means there is no mechanical connection between the outside power grid and your inside system power supply).

Also most of the surge protection was done using MOV's, which are sacrificial and eventually will be destroyed with repeated spikes. Other issues with these MOVs is that they allow much more voltage through before they reacted (typically 300 volts and higher) and they shunt the voltage spikes to ground.

So we decided to try and develop a powerline Conditioner, Isolation and Protection unit that would not have the restrictions of the many units currently on the market from an amplifier performance perspective.

 
Benefits of Torus Power Isolation Units:

Benefit #1: Very low source impedance and high current for the power amplifier

Torus power isolation units present low impedance to any electronic device that is connected to them. A Single 20 amp Torus PIU has an output impedance of 0.2 ohms and can deliver 400 amp peaks (instantaneous current). The 100 amp unit only has .04 Ohms of output impedance. A typical 200 watt audio power amplifier demands 10 amps RMS current from a 120 volt line (1200VA) but may demand up to 50 amp instantaneous peaks. The standard residential wall receptacle can't supply the 50 amp peaks because they typically have higher nominal impedance. A Torus 20 amp PIU plugged into the same wall plug can supply these peak current requirements quite easily.


Benefit #2: Power surge protection using Series Mode Surge Suppression rather than MOV's

The Torus power products use the finest, most elaborate surge suppression technology available. Series Mode Surge Suppression does not shunt the spike to ground like MOV's do, and therefore the ground is infinitely more stable in a Torus power device. Additionally, most MOV-based surge suppression units allow as much as 300 volts through to the protected components, easily enough to do substantial damage, where as Torus surge suppression has clamping voltage onset of around 2V above peak nominal voltage. Torus units are built to meet 6000 volts, 3000 amps at 1000 repeats standard.

Benefit #3: Total isolation from outside power grid:

Torus power products provide isolation through its finest designed toroidal transformer between the outside power grid and the devices being protected. Such isolation helps to reject external noise sources such as motors, lights, and dimmers commonly  found in the home environment. Torus power products provide noise filtering at a range from approximately 2000Hz to over 1MHz! other regular transformer based products do not start operating until nearly 10,000 Hz.

Benefit #4: High Power Capability:

There are 15 models of Torus power products available ranging from 2.5 amps to 100 amps and 120/240 Volts.  Torus has recently introduced NEMA wall-mount units, which are typically placed at the hydro panel for whole-house or whole-room power line isolation and protection.

Benefit# 5: Low Noise:

Torus products utilize Plitron 'LONO' (Low Noise) transformer design technology that eliminates audible noise in the power transformer regardless of line conditions, DC offset and over-voltage.  Torus products perform at the NC10 level measured on the standard NC (Noise Criteria) ? which makes them suitable for use in very quiet environments such as professional recording and broadcast studios.

Benefit # 6: Cleaner Power:

Torus products utilize Plitron 'NBT' (Narrow Bandwidth Technology)  to attenuate differential and common-mode noise without external circuits or components, and starting at a lower corner frequency (2Khz) than other systems.  The Torus result is startling ? see press and user comments! 

Benefit # 7: AVR (Optional automatic voltage regulation):

This new feature is Automatic Voltage Regulator (AVR). The AVR would make sure that the output voltage of the unit stays uniform within an acceptable range when the input voltage is either increased from or dropped below the acceptable range.The purpose is to keep the output voltage uniform when the input voltage varies over a wide range from 130V to 95V for the North American models and 260V to 190V for the International models and to shut the system down if the input voltage goes above 135V or below 90V for North American models and above 270V or below 180 for the International models.

95Dyna

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Re: Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?
« Reply #3 on: 20 Aug 2009, 02:33 pm »
I have a 4BST2/BP 26MM/MC.........what are the pro's/cons of plugging both into a Surge Protector/Line Conditioner?Should i do it at all or should i just plug the Pre Amp into the Surge protector/line conditioner and leave the Amp plugged ito a regular wall plug??.......Why does Bryston reccomend not plugging their amps into a surge protector/line condtioner when it promotes the brand Torus?Im confused...please help.

Hi VOLKS,

Give Torus a try.  You have nothing to lose as they provide a 30 day money back guarantee.  You should be good with the RM10 for your configuration or go for the RM 15 if budget allows.  Check out the models, prices and details of the offer at the link below:

http://www.toruspower.com/shopping/

Regards,

Bill

1oldguy

Re: Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?
« Reply #4 on: 20 Aug 2009, 02:43 pm »
Curious.....As far as video goes using a Torus.Have users found much of a difference with quality of picture?
And for those who have one would you consider it best serves the audio side of the tracks?

1oldguy

Re: Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?
« Reply #5 on: 20 Aug 2009, 02:56 pm »
Hi Keith

I picked up the Kuro after,at least i know I'm satisfied with the T.V. aa :green:

VOLKS

Re: Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?
« Reply #6 on: 21 Aug 2009, 12:42 am »
OK thanks James and everyone for answering my question......i will give the Torus a try :D

XKevinX

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Re: Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?
« Reply #7 on: 21 Aug 2009, 01:28 am »
After reading this thread, I am now assuming that my "Monster" power conditioner is not suitable for Bryston products.  I have a BP 6 and a 3BSST.  Should I just plug into a surge protected power bar??

Kevin

James Tanner

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Re: Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?
« Reply #8 on: 21 Aug 2009, 10:49 am »
After reading this thread, I am now assuming that my "Monster" power conditioner is not suitable for Bryston products.  I have a BP 6 and a 3BSST.  Should I just plug into a surge protected power bar??

Kevin

Hi Kevin,


Yes just plug the 3B into the power bar.  Power bars typically use 'MOV' type surge protection and have the issues as noted above and can not be relied on long term. 

james

Viajero5000

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Re: Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?
« Reply #9 on: 21 Aug 2009, 10:51 am »
Hi James,

Edit: *surge protectors* should be ok for cdp and preamp given their much lower current draw though, correct?

James Tanner

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Re: Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?
« Reply #10 on: 21 Aug 2009, 10:54 am »
Hi James,

'Power bars' should be ok for cdp and preamp given their much lower current draw though, correct?

Correct - the more the current draw (the bigger the amp) the more the Torus applies.  Remember though the Torus does much more than just provide instantanious current draw- see above.

james

95Dyna

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Re: Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?
« Reply #11 on: 21 Aug 2009, 12:35 pm »
After reading this thread, I am now assuming that my "Monster" power conditioner is not suitable for Bryston products.  I have a BP 6 and a 3BSST.  Should I just plug into a surge protected power bar??

Kevin

Hi Kevin,


The explanation James gave above applies to all amplifiers and associated gear and not just Bryston.  We're dealing with the laws of physics here and they don't play favorites. :thumb:


Regards,

Bill

XKevinX

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Re: Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?
« Reply #12 on: 22 Aug 2009, 07:48 pm »
Thanks, so if I understand this correctly, plug the power amp in to my power bar(no conditioning), leave my pre-amp and source plugged into the Monster power station(power conditioner).   The Monster unit has separate plugs for "high current" devices.  I now assume that these maybe only suitable for your run of the mill HT systems??

Kevin

95Dyna

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Re: Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?
« Reply #13 on: 22 Aug 2009, 10:49 pm »
Thanks, so if I understand this correctly, plug the power amp in to my power bar(no conditioning), leave my pre-amp and source plugged into the Monster power station(power conditioner).   The Monster unit has separate plugs for "high current" devices.  I now assume that these maybe only suitable for your run of the mill HT systems??

Kevin

Kevin,

All that matters is what sounds best to you.  I would experiment with the amps plugged into the Monster then compare them plugged into the powe bar.  I don't know anything about the Monster but not all non-iso transformer power conditioners limit current and the one's that do will do so at varying levels and will vary by situation. What the Torus does above and beyond not limiting current is actually provide current for those short term peaks that can require well over 100 amps for a very short period of time.  This is why the Torus is the best long term power conditioning solution for the application.

werd

Re: Should i use a Surge Pro/Line Conditioner?
« Reply #14 on: 27 Aug 2009, 04:46 am »
Monster power blows.... no IFS ANDS OR BUTS they just do. extremely noisy and the the result is a total unmusical soundstage.... ive owned and still do own Monstercable and they are built for the masses supported by overhyped marketing. I swear these people arent audiophiles who build them or their gear would sound different. Use the wall power as its a more honest supply.