[Kevin Haskins]

Okay, I'll just answer your questions and not go deeper into this. If it even looks like we are arguing then we are done. I had more questions for you but will withhold them.

Your ears are measuring it right?

I was referring to a microphone measurement.

They respond to stimuli and I'd say it is reasonable to say that if the stimuli is the same, in two different situations then the results should be the same.

If all else is equal then I agree. But is all else equal (not really meant as a question, just a provoking thought)? We were only talking about amplitude in all directions. If all else were the same then they would be the same speaker.

It would take more than frequency response measurement to fully characterize it but at the end of the day, our ears are a pair of microphones connected to a signal processing device. They either measure the stimuli and process it or they don't.  The how is the interesting part.

Ah, I agree. And aren't our ears more than a device that measures amplitude (again, not really asking a question)? I can play a 1kHz note on a piano and a 1kHz note on a flute to the same amplitude, but they do not sound the same. And yes, the how is a very interesting part.

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In terms of stored energy, waterfall plots are almost useless (Toole & Olive 1988, Olive 1994).    They don't tell you enough about the character of the resonances to be tied to what is and is not audible. 

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That is a very subjective statement and I do not agree with it. CSD are highly under rated.

It is the exact opposite of a subjective statement.  It is one that is based upon objective data and that is why I made it.   It isn't my opinion.  It is based upon the research of the audibility of various resonances.

I think anytime anyone says what is not audible then it is subjective. You might as well say "I" didn't hear a difference, and "I" don't think anyone will hear a difference. Or "I" don't hear a difference in "my" test, with "my" system.....

There are subjective differences even if we just look at hearing ability alone. When I had a group of the high school kids over we did some listening experiments. We humans are only "supposed" to only hear from 20Hz to 20kHz. But I had two girls here that could hear 22kHz immediately and repeatedly. The rest of the class could not.

I don't think we are going to make any more progress with this than we have any other time.   

Lets just let it drop and continue to agree to disagree.    I'm cool with that.    You don't have to agree with my methods nor I yours.   The world is big enough for both of us to approach the subject from different perspectives.   

[Danny Richie]

I agree Kevin. We can compare notes another time.

[Kevin Haskins]

I agree Kevin. We can compare notes another time.

Very cool...   I'd much rather we communicate this in private so we don't feel the need to be proven right.   I know I have a tendency towards being argumentative and get frustrated when people don't see things my way.    I don't want that tendency to lead to a conflict that isn't really necessary or constructive.     When people get into that mode they don't do much listening anyway and I'm no different.   

 

[S Clark]

An interesting thread for sure, and AC at its best.  I have had the pleasure of learning from both you guys, and your products are top notch.  Although the bit of scientist in me whats to know the hows and whys, ultimately the only thing that matters is what works.  Clearly, in speaker building, there are several ways to achieve excellent sound.  Because two designers arrive at their goal in different ways does not change the fact that they have both arrived at their goal.  Having used the Exodus 6.5" woofer and having been enticingly teased by its potential, I hope to hear what you come up with using the Seas. 
Kevin, are you going to be at RMAF this year?  Might this design be there as well?

Scott

[JoshK]

Great job Kevin, those measurements look fantastic!

Is that a 6.5" or a 5" that you are using?

[Kevin Haskins]

An interesting thread for sure, and AC at its best.  I have had the pleasure of learning from both you guys, and your products are top notch.  Although the bit of scientist in me whats to know the hows and whys, ultimately the only thing that matters is what works.  Clearly, in speaker building, there are several ways to achieve excellent sound.  Because two designers arrive at their goal in different ways does not change the fact that they have both arrived at their goal.  Having used the Exodus 6.5" woofer and having been enticingly teased by its potential, I hope to hear what you come up with using the Seas. 
Kevin, are you going to be at RMAF this year?  Might this design be there as well?

Scott

Scott,

I'm not making it to RMAF.   I've not been for the last couple years because I've found audio shows to be of no financial benefit.    They take about a month of time too so they are a ton of effort for a small business.     

I'd much rather spend the money on a demo program where people can audition them in their own home.    To me, that is all that really matters.    RMAF is a lot of fun because you get to see everyone but I'm not sure how valuable the listening experiences are at these shows.   

[Kevin Haskins]

Great job Kevin, those measurements look fantastic!

Is that a 6.5" or a 5" that you are using?

Thanks!    That is the EX-6.5.   It could be improved further with a 5" device at about 60-70deg.   You give up extension/SPL of course but with something resembling a true midrange you could clean it up even further.   

I guess it comes down to deciding when good enough is good enough.   I don't have an answer for where that is exactly.   The line is vague and sometimes you can spend a lot of time improving measurements when it doesn't really matter.     For me, it is an improvement over my last design in terms of the off-axis measurements so I'll build it, listen and compare with my last design.   

[Kevin Haskins]

Here is another version, with a prototype woofer.    This is a REALLY bad picture, the DXT looks pretty stealth on a black baffle and this looks down right sexy in the flesh.     The kids are not able to get their little fingers in there to poke the tweeter dome too, always a bonus at the Haskins ranch.

This is the "all metal" version.   The midwoofer uses a aluminum cone that has unusually good behavior in the linear distortion category.    Get this... 19mm one way suspension excursion on a motor with roughly the same BL curve as the Extremis.    This thing is like a 6.5" driver on steroids except that the FR is very well behaved with a simple 6dB break-up @ 4.2K.   Less break-up than my paper cone version and only one peak that is very easy to deal with in the crossover.    You can basically pound on this thing until the coil goes POOF without it complaining.     

[Zero the Hero]

Very cool...   I'd much rather we communicate this in private so we don't feel the need to be proven right.   I know I have a tendency towards being argumentative and get frustrated when people don't see things my way.    I don't want that tendency to lead to a conflict that isn't really necessary or constructive.     When people get into that mode they don't do much listening anyway and I'm no different.

well at least we know you're human 

It's nice to see two different sides from knowledgable parties, helps us ignoramus' learn something