[Rob S.]

Hey,
     Is there a rule of thumb for $$ amounts spent on cartridge as a percent of your whole TT ( table / arm / cartridge )  ?   What amount would you say would be the max spent on a cartridge if you spend ~ 1500 on table/arm?

Does 500-750 sound about right? 

If I could go up to 1 or 2k would it really help or just be absurd- point of diminishing returns-as far as sound value.

Thanks,

Rob S.

   

[TheChairGuy]

Rob,

Spend what you want to spend...but leave room in the budget for a record cleaning machine and adequate support under your table.  I'd rate expenditures on both of these to be more important than that next step up in cartridge cost.

This is from a guy that owns 13 cartridges and been around the block with record cleaning machines and turntable supports.  It's overall better value placing part of your budget in these than focus on just the cartridge itself.

Ciao, John 

[Rob S.]

Gotcha, now while you mentioned it, let me ask you about support and record cleaning machines.   I'll just add some $$ to my overall budget.

My player will initially go on a 1/2" steel threaded (ugly) DIY model similar to the salamander racks, except uglier. Would a 3-4" block of maple on some spikes serve as adequate if that's under the table?

Any suggestions on record cleaning machines would be helpful- I'd likely buy used here too.

Thanks,

Rob S.

[ecramer]

Gotcha, now while you mentioned it, let me ask you about support and record cleaning machines.   I'll just add some $$ to my overall budget.

My player will initially go on a 1/2" steel threaded (ugly) DIY model similar to the salamander racks, except uglier. Would a 3-4" block of maple on some spikes serve as adequate if that's under the table?

Any suggestions on record cleaning machines would be helpful- I'd likely buy used here too.

Thanks,

Rob S.

VPI 16.5 is really nice ad easy to use except for the noise witch i equate to being close to JFK 

I am using and really like Mobile Fidelity LP-9 Stylus Cleaner and last Stylus Treatment and some good brushes

Ed

[TheChairGuy]

My player will initially go on a 1/2" steel threaded (ugly) DIY model similar to the salamander racks, except uglier. Would a 3-4" block of maple on some spikes serve as adequate if that's under the table?

Any suggestions on record cleaning machines would be helpful- I'd likely buy used here too.

Thanks,

Rob S.

I've tried a few things under my table(s)....and when I found maple (3.5" block) my quest ended there.  Perhaps there is something better out there...but I haven't yet heard it.

For under $100 (see Dawns Depot on ebay - she's a nice lady up in MI who sells Michigan Butcher Block cutting boards at fair prices) I'm thrilled with the sonic results.

KABUSA.com sells the cheapest (new) record cleaning machine I know of.  The 'catch' is that you need to supply your own vacuum cleaner for suction purposes.  The other units from VPI and Nitty Gritty (the two biggest players in this niche) sell all-in-one units at twice the price new.

Every once in a while you can score an old Nitty Gritty Model 1 used for about the same price as KAB's unit is new on ebay or Audiogon, however.  Figure $150 on up for record cleaning machine.

Purchase of a maple block and record cleaning machine will cost you $250 or more....but will likely be of far greater playback value than scoring a cartridge for $250 more than some decent one to begin with. 

I think the Denon DL-160 is the pick of the litter for very sane money of $179 new these days. I love Grado's myself and use them a lot...but they are very fussy and not always a good recommendation for newbie's or those not inclined to tweek a lot.

My opinions only - ask the rabble around here for theirs....

John

[Wayner]

It doesn't matter how much money you have in records. The real question you need to ask yourself is what cartridge will sound very good, while treating my LPs kindly.

The issues (besides sound) are tracking ability, tracking weight (VTF) and stylus type. All of those factors, plus economy (unless your a higly paid CEO,COO) help to determine the correct cartridge for your needs.

I look for low tracking weight (like 1.5 grams), excellecnt tracking (at that weight), and a stylus design that helps the other factors of groove wall tracking, wear, and sound.

Older style cartridges used to have conical shaped stylus, but that has gone the way of the dinosaur, replaced by the better eliptical shape and the fine line. Some exotic cartridges also feature "shibata" stylus.

The single factor for record wear is a poor tracking cartridge. Usually, the only way to tame this problem is to add more weight (VTF) and that is the enemy of vinyl as well.

Like John, I have owned many, many cartridges. Some for $40, some for $400. One of the best values in the market (IMHO) is the Audio Technica AT440MLa for it's low cost ($130), excellect tracking in almost any arm (at 1.5 grams) and features the replaceable fine line stylus. NO it's not the best cartridge in the world, but it certainly is one of the best values. It will treat your records kindly while delivering a very satisfying sound-stage and presence. I own 6 of them and they are in all but one of my tables.

Just FYI, I have over 2,000 LPs, many are collector and I'm not afraid at all to play them.

Have a nice weekend.

Wayner 

[twitch54]

I echo both Wayner and John's replies. I will add my belief in tt support as well, with that being said I'd suggest you also take a look at the 'sandbox' method of support / isolation, one of the best, IMO.

With respect to cartridge choice you'll get plenty of suggestions, so here's mine ....... Benz Micro 'Ace S' (three output flavors to match your phono-pre, I have used and like the medium output), DynaVector 20X (1.0 mv, my current cart, very satisfied), Shelter 501Mk II (heard it recently on a ProJect RM-10....loved it, just might be my next cart)

good luck !

[Browntrout]

If you put a very good cartridge on a not so good arm you will not hear the cartridge performing as it could so you are wasting money.
 If you put a not so good cart on a really good arm then you are getting the best out of the cart and you can always improve the cart the next time it needs retipping.
 Now as to which is more pleasurable to listen to, a good cart on poor arm or poor cart on good arm. Well the good cart might sound better but over time you will come to realise and therefore hear the failings of the arm in the music and this is worse to put up with than hearing the failings of a cart through a good arm.
  All these depend upon where you want to go, is analogue going to be a long and varied journey of exploration or are you going to get setup and sit back and listen?
  My turntable and arm cost 3500 pounds second hand and my cart cost about 1200 pounds new. I'm fairly certain I could put any cart on my table and hear it doing it's thing and maybe at some point in the next few years i will buy  something a bit more revealing but the thing is I don't have to think about turntables anymore which is a nice feeling.
  Whatever anyone says about hifi, what's more important, speakers, amps source you are only ever going to hear the music as good as the source makes.
  It is the turntable and arm that allow the cart to perform, they are the foundation of the music. If the cartridge is the performance of a solo violinist then the table and arm are the years of teaching and practice and life experiences that the violinist has had.

[doug s.]

...Now as to which is more pleasurable to listen to, a good cart on poor arm or poor cart on good arm. Well the good cart might sound better but over time you will come to realise and therefore hear the failings of the arm in the music and this is worse to put up with than hearing the failings of a cart through a good arm...

no offense meant, browntrout, but the above is truly meaningless, imo.  why?  no one here is gonna use a poor arm or a poor cartridge.  and if what you really mean is a good cartridge on a great arm, vs a great cartridge on a good arm, w/o knowing any more specifics/wariable's/etc, i'd go for the great cartridge on the good arm, and not wice-wersa...  the good arm won't limit the great cartridge wery much; the great arm won't extract more from the cartridge than is there...

but, to be sure, you won't really know which is better until you try, cuz you are dealing w/two independant wariables...

ymmv,

doug s.

[woodsyi]

Lock in step performance wise is what I would say.  This is not necessarily defined by price paid.  The Vista Audio Phono 1 is a prime example.  TT, arm, cart and phono stage all have to work together in synergy. 

[richidoo]

I have very high resolution system and am very picky about tone and overall balance. I recently upgraded to a used AT 150MLX and Vista Phono 1. As it all breaks in, I can't believe how great it sounds for about $550 total (so far.)  I wll get a maple block like John said, and the dirty records are killing me, so thanks for the kabusa cleaner tip. Then I want to rewire this TT and then I'll be done. My target is <$1000 total.  The cart will be 25% of the total, bought used on AC. The AT 150MLX is AT's top MM model for US market, it has the classic neutral musical balanced AT sound, but with greatly extended FR, especially clean and big bass.

[jrtrent]

Hey,
     Is there a rule of thumb for $$ amounts spent on cartridge as a percent of your whole TT ( table / arm / cartridge )  ?   What amount would you say would be the max spent on a cartridge if you spend ~ 1500 on table/arm?

Does 500-750 sound about right? 

If I could go up to 1 or 2k would it really help or just be absurd- point of diminishing returns-as far as sound value.

I think it depends on the 'table and arm you have and what other upgrades are available to you.  For example, if there's a power supply upgrade for your turntable, you might find that it gives a greater performance enhancement than any cartridge change you could make.  Depending on how often you'd need to put out cash for re-tipping fees, really expensive cartridges might be absurd simply because it might be money better spent on or saved toward a turntable or tonearm upgrade.

Personal example, I use a Shure M97xE on my LP12/Ittok.  It gives me satisfying sound, but if I want higher performance, I would save up to buy the Lingo (haven't heard the Radikal yet) or Keel upgrades first, then maybe consider an Ekos arm before spending money on higher-priced cartridges.  That's because I've been able to hear by demonstration that these power supply, structural modifications, and tonearm upgrades make a greater difference than a cartridge change. 

On the other hand, I see my Well Tempered Record Player (about $3000) as a complete and final purchase, with no upgrades planned.  So, while I'm currently enjoying a Grado Green on the WTRP, I could see myself spending more on a cartridge to see if I would get improved sound.  I'm thinking about trying Grado's entry-level low-output model (the Statement Platinum) when the Green stylus wears out (I'm also using Grado's own phono stage, so it should be a good match).

As to what goes under your 'table for support, it really depends on the design of the 'table.  Light and rigid support is recommended for products like Linn and Rega, while more massive support seems to work better for other designs, such as VPI.  Check with your turntable manufacturer to see what they recommend.

I have just recently joined the ranks of those who clean records.  I bought a Nitty Gritty Model 1.0 and like the way it works.  If you buy used, be aware that there are parts that need replacing every so often, such as the Vac-Sweep fibers on a Nitty Gritty, the suction tubes on a VPI, and even the fibers on the record cleaning brush.  It's nice to have spares on hand whether you buy new or used.

[bluemike]

One of my better upgrades was installing a copper platter on my tt it made a huge difference 

[Browntrout]

No offence taken. I only meant to use poor and good as relative terms. However I think there may only be a few great tonearms in the world but more great carts (technically).
  I think to sum up the advice I was trying to convey I would say that part of the vinyl experience is finding the cartridge which makes music the way you like to hear it and the best way to find that cart is buy having a table and arm that lets you hear them at their most honest.
 An arm can change the character of the playback completely can't it?

[Browntrout]

An important point for the original poster is that with moving magnets the major improvements with increasing expenditure is in resolution and frequency range where in moving coils the tonality and balance becomes more realistic the more you spend with resolution often being very good from quite a low price point.
  Would anyone else agree with this point? As a generalisation.

[Wayner]

The cartridge is completely dependant on it's tethered brother, the arm, who's good or bad performance can lead to shear joy or complete failure. It is a marriage the must find total happiness for everything to work out in the end.

If you agree to the above statement, and I do, (ha, ha), one way for success is to find a cartridge that has somewhat of a medium compliance. It will even the odds a bit for you. They don't call it a "tone arm" for nothing.

Wayner 

[BobM]

I think it's easy to say that for a TT "system" every piece of it will have an affect on every other. So where do you spend the most money if you only have to pick one piece of this "system" to indulge on and go middle of the road on the rest?

The phono preamp in my opinion. I would much rather have a good phono stage and an average cartridge than the other way around. Yes, you need a good arm and table and motor and etc. to get the most out of it, but that's easily the weakest link in most systems and the place where quality makes a big difference.

Enjoy,
Bob

[nature boy]

I spent ~ 20% of my vinyl set up (turntable, tonearm, & cartridge) on my cartridge, but I'm not sure if a rule of thumb % when it comes to this part of my system.  Some tonearms (due to construction, mass, and type) have greater synergy with certain types & weight cartridges.  When I bought my table a few years ago, I decided on a modified Rega RB300 arm - the dealer who installed & aligned my cartridge recommended a Dynavector cart. 

Just my experience.

NB

[doug s.]

I think it's easy to say that for a TT "system" every piece of it will have an affect on every other. So where do you spend the most money if you only have to pick one piece of this "system" to indulge on and go middle of the road on the rest?

The phono preamp in my opinion. I would much rather have a good phono stage and an average cartridge than the other way around. Yes, you need a good arm and table and motor and etc. to get the most out of it, but that's easily the weakest link in most systems and the place where quality makes a big difference.

Enjoy,
Bob

i am tentatively in agreement on this one.  a couple reasons why - first, fono preamp has an amazingly difficult job - it must be right.  second, i know how good reasonably priced cartridges, tonearms and decks can sound.  third, the preamp for me is far and away the most important piece of gear in my system - it is the cns of the entire rig - it connects everything.  same can be said about the fono-stage for the winyl part of the system.

i am only tentative, tho, cuz, as rim says - synergy is key.  and, w/fono stages like the jolida and audio vista out there, it seems that you do not have to drop a large wad of cash here, either, to get excellent results...

doug s.

[Ericus Rex]

I spent 50% more for my cartridge than my tt setup.  Am I crazy?