NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!

cologner · « **Reply #1080 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 10:40 am »

Wanted to let you know that the famous "gainclone" amplifier is available in Germany, you just need to complete it with heatsink, transformer and cabinet. The price is reasonable IMHO.
http://www.audiocreativ.com/DE/pd1239028488.htm?categoryId=1
They also produce for:
http://www.shine7.com/audio/audio.htm
English website version is coming soon, but you can always contact them either in german or english. Maybe a good idea if you can´t find, or don´t want to build a small decent amplifier for your panels on your own.

Nickolay V · « **Reply #1081 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 06:20 pm »

COLOGNER
In accordance of our experiments and conclusions best result ( ! with NXT also) have place with audiophile grade class D amps.
Japan made Flying Mole (DAD-M100 for example).
UcD from Hypex.nl (Philips division)
http://www.pmc-speakers.com/product.php?mode=view&pid=208
Usual class A/AB/B amps not have such superfast micro and macro dynamic as these class D amps.

cologner · « **Reply #1082 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 10:17 pm »

Hi Nickolay, Flying Mole DAD-M100 monoblock is 700 Euro/pair and PMC DS-001 monoblock is 700 Euro per piece.

This is far beyond any budget I´d like to invest into this project, that was intended to be possibly high-end on a low cost base with a few very good, but cheap components. We are not going to buy a pair of ready-to-go-4000-Euro-Podiumsound-Speakers either?

So I´m going with the recommendations that zygadr gave which included a gainclone amp, or the Dayton DTA-1 for a 2-exciter version.

Nickolay V · « **Reply #1083 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 10:33 pm »

cologner

With usual amps (and with gainclone amp particularly) sound may be clean but sluggish !
Do you need such ?
I am prefer clean, but fast and inertialess sound.
NXT or Ribbon Planar (HF-MF)Array with usual amps that is as racing car with economy-car engine.
Unreasonable! Irrational!

zygadr · « **Reply #1084 on:** 24 Jun 2010, 03:39 am »

I'm only going to comment on this one time as it relates to amplifiers for the NXT panels.

CLASS D is NOT (

) IN ANY WAY SUPPERIOR TO A ............................GAINCLONE !

I have had class D modules and amplifiers here at home and have tried them with the panels.

The Gainclone(and I have built many versions) has NEVER!....EVER!...............been ''sluggish''..........it's the exact OPPOSITE!.

Nickolay..............I don't know what Gainclone you have heard, made or listened to, but there must have been a serious breach of construction normality that made that Gainclone sound ''sluggish''to you.

I would tear that one apart and start again and build it as per the usual simplified circuitry and construction rules...........and DON'T use huge caps on the power supply rails.....even with a snubberised power supply.................this will DESTROY the magic, pace and musicality of the amplifier.

cologner · « **Reply #1085 on:** 24 Jun 2010, 10:57 am »

Another hint to Nickolay, the Dayton Tripath DTA-1 although it has only 2*16W or so is rated class D

. You can also try a TK2050 2*100W CLASS-T D TRIPATH T-AMP Board from Sure for less than 50 $. But then you should hear them both, with the 2*LM3886 70W featured 40 $ - board http://www.audiocreativ.com/Download/LM3886.pdf to get things straight. Not much to invest but a lot to listen and compare

@zyagdr, if maybe you read the datasheet for that gainclone from the link I posted, do you think they´re on the right way or is there something to be changed? I´ve listened to that unit a few days ago connected to a pair of PMC OB1 and it was already Outta This World

Nickolay V · « **Reply #1086 on:** 24 Jun 2010, 11:52 pm »

COLOGNER
ZYGADR
We use in installation and tested great numbers amplifiers (during long 9 years).
And as result now choose ONLY two types: UcD and Flying Mole.
Also now we use in installation ONLY BGcorp Ribbon Planar Array speakers and factory made NXT .
Danleysoundlabs usual speakers and subwoofers.
For AUDIOPHILE (TRUE AUDIO) stereo and 2.1 we make only PC based systems(All-in-One touch-PC/Notebook) with external professional audio cards( RME/Weiss/Lavry ...) and J.River MediaCenter with VST plugins: Bass Manager , Line Phase Equalizer, IKM ARC .
WE HAVE SUPERIOR RESULTS IN SOUND QUALITY.

PS:Gainclone amp have only 92db S/N but FM and UcD have real SN and Dynamic Range 116-120db.
UcD amps THD+N 30 times less than best class A amps have.

cologner · « **Reply #1087 on:** 25 Jun 2010, 05:52 am »

Nickolay, it is nice that you have the money and everything "professional" straight on your hands. But please keep in mind that this thread was intended to be DIY including personal research on how to choose material and set up the panels as well as constructing / finding a good amp to "communicate" with these panels.
DIY means to keep the budget small and to find alternatives to usually expensive ready-made units, that everyone who has the money, is able to buy.
If someone "of importance and with a market-known name" is taking a few 5 $ parts to set up a 700 $ selling amp, that might not be any better than your ten-times cheaper homemade chip amp, so any further discussing of that matter is worthless for the sake of this thread.

zygadr · « **Reply #1088 on:** 25 Jun 2010, 06:46 am »

I can't help but reply

COLOGNER is correct.

The Gainclone and the NXT panels are made for each other........both are cheap to build and sound better than anything I've ever heard at home or other people's mega thousands systems.

You want to know what sounds sluggish and slow?.............CLASS A, SINGLE ENDED .
Class D is only hype...............the Gainclone is a proven performer......lightening fast!.............you think that Gainclone users haven't tried class D?...............many I know have.

At first they were impressed as it mimicked the gainclone in some areas. Only after extended periods did they realise that some of their very expensive Hypex, UCD modules did NOT sound ''MUSICAL'' or as involving as the Gainclone.

With my latest EPS panels, the Gainclone MURDERS everything..........valves, A/B solid state giants, AND class D!

Nickolay V · « **Reply #1089 on:** 29 Jun 2010, 09:57 pm »

Zygadr
Cologner

Dear friends
Your goal was simply to get pleasant (nice) sound (!? as I understand you

).
But my goal was to get maximal live (Natural) sound identity.
It is much difficult.
Miserable quantity of equipment оn world market suitable for this task , in spite of price.

zygadr · « **Reply #1090 on:** 30 Jun 2010, 12:59 am »

Nickolay..........our goal was to get what???????????????????

You must be kidding

The Gainclone is an ''AUDIOPHILE GRADE'' sound................there is no question about it.

If you think we use and build these types of amplifiers to get ''NICE'' sound you must be insane.

Also, if you think CLASS D (

)

) IS ''live and natural''...................then good luck to you.

I have heard many and think they're crap!

I know someone who has built so many Gainclones for customers and owns some very high end gear that sounds ''live and Natural''....................but uses the Gainclone instead............ ALL THE TIME!

So you make up your own mind about this:..... .. ........... I recently asked him if all these expensive amplifiers he has and had (including classD) were better than the Gainclone (surely they must be!

)...............his answer was..........NAH!!!!!

Then he started to:

................picked up a GAINCLONE he had just finished, looked at all his ''live and ''natural'' expensive piles of shit, and kissed the GAINCLONE

After all that, Nickolay, this person is probably the best and most knowledgeable audiophile in West Australia, and uses his ''pleasant'' and ''nice''

Gainclone to run his equipment with???????????

zobsky · « **Reply #1091 on:** 1 Jul 2010, 05:10 pm »

Guys,.. cool down. He hasn't heard your gear and you haven't heard his. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

zygadr · « **Reply #1092 on:** 2 Jul 2010, 07:42 am »

zobsky, thank you for keeping the peace

BUT,......................any one who thinks a Gainclone is ''sluggish'' has no idea what he's talking about

This thread is about NXT PANELS not amps......................right?

Nickolay V · « **Reply #1093 on:** 3 Jul 2010, 01:27 pm »

Guys, I am sorry!
It was only my opinion, and conclusion by 7 years of experience.
But.....
...ALMOST EVERY traditional amps work inarticulately
Natural sound identity need much articulation !!!
Only few audiophie grade type "Class D" can implement it.

''sluggish''- not exact phrase.
"inarticulately" - exactly that I mean !!!

zygadr · « **Reply #1094 on:** 4 Jul 2010, 03:39 am »

Oh, for heaven's sake...............................I'm out of here.

DanTheMan · « **Reply #1095 on:** 4 Jul 2010, 05:24 am »

You guys are arguing over nothing.

Read this (and what I link in the thread) and relax. We are all adults I believe.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=79787.60
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=79787.80

Dan

pol_bct · « **Reply #1096 on:** 4 Jul 2010, 08:25 am »

Quote from: zygadr on 4 Jul 2010, 03:39 am

Oh, for heaven's sake...............................I'm out of here.

OHhhh, not AGAIN !

POL

panomaniac · « **Reply #1097 on:** 4 Jul 2010, 01:12 pm »

Nicolay - Please! This is not the place to argue amps. I, too, prefer Class-D over the Gainclones I have heard, but it is not the point of this thread. Perhaps the Gainclone actually does a better job with the NXT style panels. Matching the amp and speaker is important. It can make a big difference to the sound.

So whatever your tastes in amplification, this isn't the place to argue it. Zygdar obviously likes the Gainclone on the NXT panels. And he's done most of the work on these panels, so why not allow him to say so? No matter what your view (or mine) on the subject.

Can we get back to speakers now?

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #1098 on:** 4 Jul 2010, 01:55 pm »

Quote from: panomaniac on 4 Jul 2010, 01:12 pm

I, too, prefer Class-D over the Gainclones I have heard...

Not me, I've heard many Class D amps, Virtue Audio included... And while they are good at what they do well, I prefer the Gainclone by a long shot. And I only heard one, a poorly constructed home built at that. The GC is much warmer, more tube like than the Class D, which comes across as too antiseptic and clinical. The GC is much more holographic or 3 dimensional and easier on the ears, especially for extended listening.

I suppose there's no right or wrong answer, just preference... but I'm with zygadr, the GCs are far more true to my ear than Class D.

zygadr · « **Reply #1099 on:** 5 Jul 2010, 02:17 am »

Exactly!!!!!!!.................amps are a matter of personal preference..for sure.

With the latest EPS panel material, the transparency and it's ability to reveal the source chain, the situation, as I have found, is CRITICAL.

Amplifier choice is right up there.....................IMHO, class D is revealed for what it is: stark, sterile and unmistakenly solid state................with EPS,that is............

Saying that however, if you think your class D amp suits the EPS panels........go for it.
If you are using Gatorfoam, class D will be particularly suited, as it seems to break through the Gatorfoam's high frequency roll off.
Same goes for corrugated cardboard.

We have come so far in this project and I believe that EPS is the ultimate low cost material. It's not super rigid, and in large sizes can seem floppy, but it's extremely low density/weight has been the breakthrough in the sound quality department where strangely enough, ''rigidity'' means absolutely nothing

My new and proper cedar frames are nearly finished and I will post some pics when done.
They are MASSIVE!

So far, experiments with mounting materials/cushioning etc.,is finished and choices decided upon via listening tests.

The sound is absolutely EXTRAORDINARY.

Highs and mids are in abundance(very detailed, revealing varying textures easily).
Bass is the most surprising of all...................coming in only when it's supposed to..............when it does it is solid and can go low...............VERY LOW

Attack and speed of transients is mind boggling..................leaving you stunned!

Instrument tones are truly rendered and there is no question mark as to what woodwind instrument is being played at the back of an orchestra.
Same goes for drum types, how they are beaten, where they are beaten and what they are made of.

It's been a long journey, with many ups and downs, arguments and agreements.

In the end, I feel that a large NXT DML has been sucessfully designed and built, and is capable of the highest fidelity in music reproduction.

The silly stick on Dayton ''SPIDERS'' can be considered as a novelty with adequate sound reproduction for simple use......................but when the exciter is removed and series paralelled on a large EPS panel, secured to a wooden frame by the appropriate materials and methods, a truly Audiophile product emerges.......................that I am certain of.

To those who still doubt this as the raving of a mad man, ..........................sucked in!!!!!...........you will never know what this technology can do.................go play with your stupid arc welding voltage Electrostats, or your ''M.M.M's'' : million magnet Magnepans.