[Delacroix]

Am curious if anyone here has used a subwoofer with their VSA speakers? I don't use one and certainly don't feel I need more bass but I once had an enlightening experience when I listened to an REL sub with a pair of Audio Physic Scorpios in a dealership. My initial reaction to the idea of a sub was that I'd not care for it but the dealer demonstrated to me that a good sub, properly integrated, does a lot more than add bass reproduction. In the case of the AP's I found the whole soundstage widened considerably, particularly in terms of depth, and the music just seemed so much more relaxed and natural. I did not hear much change in the bass, it was the other regions that improved. It was a powerful education given my presumptions. Since then, I've never heard a sub I liked in any system but I don't think it was an Audio Physic/Rel specific effect that I heard, more likely one of good set up and proper integration. So, given the musicality of VSA, I wonder if anyone has tried integrating a good sub in their two-channel Von set-up? If so, please share your experience.

Thanks

Delacroix

[JackD201]

On a lark I tried 2 VR-S1s with a pair of VR-4jrs. It was pretty trippy. When integrated though the sub levels were really really low. It felt like I was using only 10% of the subs. It thus struck me as a bit over the top expense wise. At the time the cost of two additional S1s could get you a pair of SRs which sounded bigger and fuller anyway as well as better everywhere else especially with amps of lower power output.

I believe one of our very own circle buddies has been trying his Annies with a pair of Velodyne subs to good effect.

What say you Gavin Bug? 

[ceedee]

Hi Guys,

Sub or no Sub? Why not?

Think about the DB 99, VR 9 and VR 11.

The size of the sound depends of the roomacoustics, the type of music or film.

When you like to use a Sub, better use two as the VR 9 and Vr 11.

Than the soundfield is acting very natural.

The "subsonics" and "uppersonics" well tuned gives us more space in the music.
The art of tuning is the 'holy graal'. Think about tuning a grand Church Organ.

Making big music in a small room needs 'special fingers' to tune.
The thought of only using 10 % of the capacity is not so wrong. As long as the frequencycurve is flat. The musicenergy decides how much the Sub is in use. Even the voice-dynamics are getting more speed and sounds very nature.

When I was tuning the VR 11 SE in Bucharest I was amazed what the Subsonics did to make the music feel 'life-like".

So when a sub is to be used, be ware of tuning. 'This is not the easy part.

Good luck.

Cor

[es347]

Well it just so happens that I have been committing the greatest apostasy imaginable....I ran my annies with a...shudder...Velodyne SPL-1200R rotated out of my HT.  I was prompted to try this after visiting my local MAC dealer where he was running a pair of CLXs with a Depth subwoofer.  I was amazed at how well it integrated with the mains and the sub was out in the middle of the room, not placed in any special location.  The soundstage collapsed like crazy when we switched it off.  Granted the CLXs don't go anywhere near as low as my Anniversaries but the experience caused the bug to bite....hard.  I ran my V sub from line level inputs on my preamp so was able to switch off the mains while still listening to the subwoofer.  It was actually tuneful, not the "one note" bass you read about with some subs.  I am considering, rather seriously, running a pair of the new Velodyne Optimum-12s....either from my monoblocks or from a line level source (preamp).  I would appreciate any comments or suggestions you guys may have.  Jack has been gracious enough to share his thoughts via PMs so this is old news to him.

In summary, things sounded pretty darn good with my little 12" velodyne.  It reaches pretty low and makes a significant difference in the depth and width of the soundstage.  The annies go low...definitely full-range speakers, but for that REALLY low stuff, you can't seem to get there with anything short of a good subwoofer.  I spoke at length with a very knowledgeable gentleman at Velodyne named Alex and he said the new Optimum series employs a new advanced driver with a full 2" excursion and apparently very good control.  He said for music, it bests the DD series and it's a lot less expensive.

One last thing; Jack feels that I should drive the 2 subs via my amplifiers rather than line level to give the sound a "McIntosh flavor".  I can do that or the line level so would be interested in hearing what some of your other guys think about this....or what you think about the whole notion of running a pair of VR5 Anniversaries with subwoofers....thanks in advance.

Gavin

[varsharun]

Well it just so happens that I have been committing the greatest apostasy imaginable....I ran my annies with a...shudder...Velodyne SPL-1200R rotated out of my HT.  I was prompted to try this after visiting my local MAC dealer where he was running a pair of CLXs with a Depth subwoofer.  I was amazed at how well it integrated with the mains and the sub was out in the middle of the room, not placed in any special location.  The soundstage collapsed like crazy when we switched it off.  Granted the CLXs don't go anywhere near as low as my Anniversaries but the experience caused the bug to bite....hard.  I ran my V sub from line level inputs on my preamp so was able to switch off the mains while still listening to the subwoofer.  It was actually tuneful, not the "one note" bass you read about with some subs.  I am considering, rather seriously, running a pair of the new Velodyne Optimum-12s....either from my monoblocks or from a line level source (preamp).  I would appreciate any comments or suggestions you guys may have.  Jack has been gracious enough to share his thoughts via PMs so this is old news to him.

In summary, things sounded pretty darn good with my little 12" velodyne.  It reaches pretty low and makes a significant difference in the depth and width of the soundstage.  The annies go low...definitely full-range speakers, but for that REALLY low stuff, you can't seem to get there with anything short of a good subwoofer.  I spoke at length with a very knowledgeable gentleman at Velodyne named Alex and he said the new Optimum series employs a new advanced driver with a full 2" excursion and apparently very good control.  He said for music, it bests the DD series and it's a lot less expensive.

One last thing; Jack feels that I should drive the 2 subs via my amplifiers rather than line level to give the sound a "McIntosh flavor".  I can do that or the line level so would be interested in hearing what some of your other guys think about this....or what you think about the whole notion of running a pair of VR5 Anniversaries with subwoofers....thanks in advance.

Gavin

Evolution of man:
VR4-SR --> VR5 Annie --> VR5 Annie w/1 Sub --> VR5 Annie w/2 Subs --> VR9--->

You're on the right track Gavin 

-Arun

[es347]

That last jump represents leveraging my house, cars, wife, and every other asset imaginable!  So I choose to be happy within my current audio circumstance.

[McTwins]

Hi
Instead of subs I am using 11 Helmholtz resonators properly tuned in in my room. I don't think it's enough to have only two subs. One have to place them correctly and proper tuned and I do belive one has to have a lot of them. I'm not saying that it's wrong if subs are being used only more complicated to adjust and the the needs of wire connection.

Gavin.....
You have annies and it goes down to 20Hz, so the problem isin't the speakers more your room haven't the ability to create low freq. Thats is  one way looking at it.

ceedee... is right, it's not so easy.

[es347]

Josip,

My annies are definitely full range speakers but to plumb the deepest depths, nothing gets you there like a subwoofer.  Using a S'phile test cd with sweep freqs I checked things out with my system before and after adding the V'dyne.  Things went noticeably lower with the subwoofer.  Regarding room tuning, I also believe it's important but a friend who happens to be an acoustics engineer visited recently and said there was not much to be done in the way of tuning here in my listening room.  Thanks for the comments...much appreciated.

Gavin

[kgturner]

how about:

VR4-SR --> VR5 Annie --> VR5 Annie w/1 Sub --> VR5 Annie w/2 Subs --> VR77!!

dare to dream!

[es347]

To quote the Beach Boys..."wouldn't it be nice?"   The 77s are going to be upper stratosphere speakers when and if we find out what they really are all about.  The pix look alluring to say the least.

[kgturner]

sweet pics! from what i read, the 77's are supposed to have their coming out party at the RMAF this year. i suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

kevin t

[fplanner2000]

Last fall, Albert tuned my Velo DD-15 to my room containing VR-7se's and the sound improved quite a bit.  This, mind you, was with the 7's being driven by 1 VAC Phi 300.1 amp (150w/ch). 

Since I acquired a 2nd 300.1 amp a few months ago, the sub has become pretty irrelevant, at least when the music is louder, as the 7's woofers take over.  On quieter passages or lower volumes, however, the sub is still helpful, as it doesn't seem like the woofers in the 7's really get "activated".  My guess is since they are nowhere near as efficient as the upper module, it takes more "juice" (= volume) to activate them.  Is this a "flaw"?  Maybe.  Enough to make me get rid of my 7's?  Not yet..... Is it an annoyance?  Absolutely.  Is it fixable?  Albert?

[es347]

Before you put your 7s on Agon for $5K, call me.  aa

[JackD201]

Gavin.....
You have annies and it goes down to 20Hz, so the problem isin't the speakers more your room haven't the ability to create low freq. Thats is  one way looking at it.

This and fplanner's experience is very consistent with my own.

In my larger room, my VR-5s needed Lamm M2.2s (very conservatively rated at 220wpc doubling up down to 1 ohm wall outlet permitting) to really strut it's stuff. My pervious amps, a Pass Aleph 0, Levinson No.432 and a long time reference, BAT VK-150s could handle it very well just not when going balls to the wall. The Lamm ML1.1 80 wpc tube amps (no doubling up here) likewise fell short in the large room.

Although sold, the VR-5s came back for baby sitting as the owner is going through some renovations and maintenance in his home. They are back with the ML1.1s in the smaller room which is half of the big room at 24sq/m. In THIS room, ooooooh boy talk about room shaking bass response even with the 5s well away from the walls.

So I firmly believe that bass response is a function of speaker/room integration and something often overlooked, required amplification as it relates to SPL losses as distance from from the listener to the loudspeakers increases as well as decreases in SPL as the loudspeakers are situated farther from supporting boundaries.

Going back to the larger room, the VR-9s still do best with the 2.2s but this time with twin 1kw subs actually doing very little work, there is a sense of ease that is infatuating. Absolutely nothing has ruffled it's feathers not even Frampton played as near stadium levels. It did ruffle 3 floors worth of neighbors though  That was the last time I ever tried THAT!

The question now is.........will Gavin spring for two subs or try MC 1.2KW's? 

[es347]

The 1.2KWs are not on my radar screen.  No plans to buy them then hire a millwright to get them down to my listening room.  My VR5 Anniversaries go low, make no mistake but I have found that even with the big boy full-range speakers a good subwoofer or two can get you way down to Davy Jones's locker.   I'd love to hear Albert's big old 15" subwoofer or at least read the specs and see some pix.  Only problem having one would be the occasional drywall nail popping.

[ceedee]

Hi Gavin,

You have posted realy nice pictures from the 'secret' VR 77.

Looks right between the 5 and the 9.
They should sound amazing too.

Who is the man in 'the mirror' leaning on the VR 5 SE?

Cor


 

[McTwins]

Hi
Reason I don't want any sub is because I allready have speakers that go down to 20 Hz. Adding a sub with freq responce 20 -120 Hz makes no sence.

I didin't have any good bass responce before, adding the Helmhotz I have now has taking my sub sonic to another level. It's not only the freq. responce that should be flat it's about the reverbation time in the low freq thats is also important. Of course wall construction is also important as well. I am treating my room responce not the speakers responce that is allready good.

gavin... you could ad two more MC501 and run four amps in mono per module.    then you will have a lot of bass.

[es347]

One thing I've learned regarding my friends here at the VSA AC--you are very good at spending my money for me.

[JackD201]

One thing I've learned regarding my friends here at the VSA AC--you are very good at spending my money for me.

    Just giving you all the moral support there Gavin! 

Cor,

Skinny guy wearing a cap? Looks like Joe to me.

On the 77s

Thats the initial prototype and is undergoing quite a bit of aesthetic refinements. I believe the MT units are much sleeker now with the new tweet and super tweet closer together lopping a couple of inches of the height and the crease has been smoothed out. What's interesting is the use of the 3CTL with a front port as opposed to the 7 SE's twin rear ports. This will make them a little bit more flexible to position. As for price point I'll go out on a limb and predict that it will be in the 40s to 50s as opposed to the 7SEs which were in the 60s and 70s.

By the looks of it, The 77 now is slotted nicely between the 5 and 7. The 7SE was too close to the 9SE and was and still is regarded as a 9 for those that aren't keen on active components or for folks like Corr, Violetmachan and fplanner who have lotsa amplifier power at their disposal like Kron DXLs, Big Tenors and VAC 300.1 monos respectively.

7SE is a fantastic speaker. Business wise though I always said it was rather tough to justify its place in the line. In my experience it was sort of like the VR-2 vs. the VR-4jr. Most buyers opted to dig a little deeper for the jrs even when they came to audition the VR-2s. The same thing happened with VR-7s and VR-9s. The prices were too close and so was the performance.  The REALLY lucky guys were the ones who were able to score VR-7s when they were in the 30s and 40s before cabinet production costs skyrocketed and brought the prices within 10gs of the 9s.

[es347]

Hi Gavin,

You have posted realy nice pictures from the 'secret' VR 77.

Looks right between the 5 and the 9.
They should sound amazing too.

Who is the man in 'the mirror' leaning on the VR 5 SE?

Cor

He's either a spy from Wilson Audio or one of Albert's bodyguards.