[OBF]

I'm looking at making some changes to my 5.1 HT setup with the goal of increasing 2-ch and music performance.  I currently have an Onkyo 885, which I will admit, Ted warned me about -- saying it's a heck of a controller for HDMI/Video/BRD codecs, etc.....but pretty weak as a stereo preamp.  Going from a TacT 2.2 setup with Ellis monitors and dual subs to the Onkyo is, well, let's just say a major letdown in enjoyment. 

I realize that a common sense approach might be to keep the Onkyo for what it does best and then integrate a traditional 2-ch preamp with HT bypass.  It might make sense but I don't love that idea because I prefer my setup to be as simple as possible for other people to use, and also because I'd like any improvements to carry over to concert DVDs and the like.

I'm wondering if people here have experience with high end processors like the Anthem D2 and Lexicon MC-12B.  Both of these are somewhat affordable used in the $3k area.  The Lexicon in particular seems like a major piece of engineering and Secrets claims "reference" measurements in 2-ch mode.  They even recommended that people consider it purely as a 2-ch preamp as the $12k pieces sell for 1/4 of that now.  The downside is all my video switching would have to be done separately with an HDMI splitter and I'd need to rely on a BRD player's analog out for the advanced codecs.  The Anthem can handle it all internally with a PS3 outputting LPCM.

Both also offer room correction capabilities that have garnered much praise.  Based on my positive experiences with TacT, I find that compelling.

I've also heard the Marantz 8003 sounds better than others in its class at about 1/2 the cost of the other two but no serious room EQ.  The upcoming Outlaw with Trinnov sounds promising.

Just wondering if anyone has experience or comments on using a high end processor to get acceptable or even great performance on CD and music DVDs.

Mark

[Carlman]

I have the Onkyo 905 and have owned the TacT 2.0s.. The 905 would be a let down also.
I played around with the notion of getting a seriously badass pre/pro that could do it all but I primarily listen to 2-channel.. and I know I will buy and sell gear for years to come to suit my tastes.  I also like rolling tubes on occasion. 

All of a sudden the convenience of pressing 2 or 3 less buttons created limits on what I could do with my system.  All-in-one limits flexibility more than I could handle. 

The Anthem or something along those lines that can do it all, the way you want it.. and sounds 'good enough' would be the only direction I'd go.. if I decided to go that way.  (which I wouldn't) 

I'd rather invest in a fancy remote that I can show someone how to use.. I've shown my wife how to turn on the whole system in my room... w/ ht bypass on a 2-channel Belles 21A, a separate amp, projector, and motorized screen.... and I don't even have a fancy remote.  

I chased the 'simple system' for years and wanted it to all match too. (really)  But in the end, I just put it all in a cabinet and enjoy the sound.

[OBF]

Carl, I think those are all good points and why I asked the question.  I don't want this to sound like I'm arguing against those points, just trying to think it through.....

I definitely haven't thrown out the approach of using a nice 2-ch preamp integrated into a MC system, and I could probably do it cheaper than a high-end all-in-one, but, it kind of bugs me that I'd "fix" my stereo issue but not do anything for concert DVDs and things like on demand MC music through the cable company.  There is all kinds of good stuff and good music is good music, but I find it uninspiring when the dynamics are lacking.  I'd say I'm probably 40% 2-ch and 60% BRD movies/MC television/DVDs.

Then the other thing like I said is room EQ.  Not sure if you liked the TacT sound as much as I did, and I might be rationalizing, but the reviews of Anthem's ARC makes me wonder if I'd be getting TacT-level improvements as part of a package that would improve all aspects of my system at the same time.  Might be asking too much but I'd like to think that Anthem could get it right with a $6,000 or $7,000 piece of gear.  I really wish I had a Lex MC-12B to borrow as even used they are a lot of coin, but if I trust John Johnson and his staff at secrets, I'd be getting a kick-ass 2-ch preamp by default.  He claims he pulled a BAT VK-5i from his reference system and swapped in a spare 12B that I guess was just sitting around, and was so impressed by the lack of drop-off that he did the measurement suite, which was not part of their original review, and found reference performace that matched what he was hearing.  I'd just have a little more complicated setup with HDMI switching in a separate box and analog audio connections, but like you said, it would not be a big deal if the sound is what I'm looking for.

Would be so much easier if I had a nice tube preamp, a D2, and MC-12 all handy to play with at the same time but no chance of that.  And by the way, I still have your old 100N+ that is currently collecting dust but I find myself reluctant to sell it!

[Carlman]

That's why 'OBF' sounded so familiar!  Sorry the AKSA's collecting dust.. I'd see if Hugh would let you do a trade-in to one of his latest goodies.. I should've kept it for when I was in the mood for that sound.. really fast amp... Glad to know it's still around, thanks. 

I really liked the TacT.. I sold it locally so I get to hear it every once in a while.. and I still enjoy it every time.  It was modded to the hilt, though.. so it comes alive like you wouldn't believe.   After having that, I could definitely see why you'd do the Anthem if the room correction is in the same league.  You could always do a multi-channel TacT setup... you could use the AKSA for 2 channels!  Now we're talkin'!

For the sound I like, I've decided I like as much tube 'life' as I can get in the pre and as much controlled power in an amp as I can get.  There is a striking balance when the combination is right and it sounds more like a live performance to me.  I too, enjoy the BRD live performances.  I have the Who, U2, Dave Matthews, and some non-BR discs that I really like.  I wish more would come out on BR.. I just keep waiting, though.. Lots of old codgers are available now.. that were great when they were young.... but the greatness is gone.   So, I'm waiting for White Stripes and other young guys on BRD.. I hope it happens before they get old! haha

Right now I'm doing the preamp w/ HT bypass and am pretty happy with it all.  But my listening ratio is opposite yours... so, it's tough to say.  I've only listened critically to 1 HT Pre/Pro/Receiver, the Onkyo 905 and it's a really good receiver... and not in the league of the ones you're considering for SQ.  Sounds like you already know you want that Anthem.  But you're right about getting a chance to try stuff.. You'll need to hookup with a local dealer-friend.  That helps... well, it helps you spend more, anyway.. but at least it's what you know you'll like.

Best of luck and I hope someone else can provide more insight on truly high-end pre/pro's.

-C

[Bill@LakeGeorge]

I have the Anthem D2v and ARC is great my system never sounded as good.

[ted_b]

Mark,
Are you saying you are disappointed with all the 885 sonics, not just 2 channel?  I ask cuz you've mentioned a couple times about how an HT bypass setup wouldn't fix the sound of concert DVD's, etc.  That must mean you don't like the 885 for any music-oriented sonics, stereo or multichannel (not that I disagree, just asking).

As you referenced, I am in the HT Bypass camp; always have been.  It theoretically limits my choices of 2 channel preamps, but not really in today's world.  I echo all of Carl's comments about the advantages...well put.   On the processor side I replaced my 885 with a simpler Denon 3808 and was able to improve the sonics, significantly improve the simplicity (and I have a complex 5.1 and 7.1 setup with different speakers and amp for both) and decrease the cable mess (deleted an amp for movies, for example).  At the other end (but no HDMi and no room correction), I'd look seriously at a used Proceed AVP-2.  Most say it is an incredible 2 channel piece, with very good surround thrown in.  Here's someone comparing it to the MC-12 he also bought used (and loves):
http://www.avforums.com/forums/audio-processors-power-amps/1032822-processor-comparisons-v2-00-avp-2-mc-12-a.html

[OBF]

Bill, thanks for the nice data point.  Out of curiosity, is it the best your system has sounded with a MC configuration using an SSP, or the best it has sounded even including a stereo setup?

Carl, Oh, I certainly didn't want to imply my AKSA is collecting dust because it is not worthy, but I didn't want to have a mismatched L-C-R setup so I'm currently using a 5-ch ATI amp.  It is certainly not the equal of the AKSA as far as I can tell.  I'm actually kind of saving it as I still have almost everything I need to resurrect a 2-ch system in our living room (my media room is an oversized 3rd garage stall with some noise isolation from the rest of the house with a front PJ setup) as I didn't sell the AKSA or my Ellis monitors.  I think those two synergize well.  Just need a worthy preamp really.  And I agree, it does sound like I want the D2 doesn't it?  I think I like the "idea" of the MC-12B better as I'm moving to a dual differential amp and the Lex's dual differential DAC output would be a nice match, but ultimately it sounds like Anthem's EQ is probably superior and more TacT-like (I think the Lex system is more time-domain processing of low frequencies).  I know Lex owners would disagree though.  My TacT had an Aberdeen supply but not the rest of the mods yours had.

Ted, yeah I guess that is what I think about the 885 with the exception that I'm impressed by lossless LPCM movie soundtracks, but not so much compressed music vis DD or DTS.  Nor stereo PCM.  I don't even feed it an analog signal as I no longer have a high end CD/DVD player with good DACs (use a PS3 or old Sony S7000 as transport).  If all I watched were Blu-rays I'd probably be happy with the Onkyo.  I also think it needs to be turned up pretty loud to sound its best.  As I mentioned above, another disadvantage for me with the 2-ch HT by-pass option is that I don't have the same level of front end equip that you and others have.  Even with my TacT setup, I was just using a transport to feed a digi to the TacT and going 2-ch route means I'd have to re-invest in an analog front end.  Your points are well taken though, it would require more work and system matching, but probably superior in the long run and I could buy something like a used Modwright and nice DAC for less than a SSP upgrade.

And another point about my overall sound quality for music -- the Onkyo might be getting a bit of a bum rap as I made multiple changes all at one -- AKSA amp swapped for an ATI, TacT 2.2x for the 885, and a pair of Ellis monitors swapped for 5 x-statiks.  At one point I forcused on the speakers and hooked the AKSA up to the L-R and fed a signal direct (no preamp) from a Transporter to the AKSA and I thought the sound was much much more pleasing so I don't blame the speakers.  But while ATI has a lot of fans and it is a lot of amp for the price, I'm sure it is not helping the situation.  I recently decided to try out a Gemstone Blue Diamond but don't have it yet.  I expect the 885/Gemstone won't be a major improvement but I bet a quality balanced preamp or balanced SSP like the 12B would be.  But it's all internet research as I don't know anyone in the Portland area that will loan me any of this stuff.  Thanks for the Proceed suggestion.  I had not considered them up to this point.  Sounds though like the lack of 5.1 analog inputs would kill it for me but I'll do some more reading.  Heck, there is even a Halcro SSP200 on Agon for not much more than a D2!

[Bill@LakeGeorge]

It is the best using all formats but with the new THX MC formats on the D2v I would never go back to stereo.  Of course having the Salk HT3's and Revel 15A sub doesn't hurt either.

I had the D2 and the D2v is a definite step up.  I think the proceed, although great, is outdated.

Another plus is the outstanding video processor the Anthem offers.  Plus outstanding support.

[OBF]

Of course having the Salk HT3's and Revel 15A sub doesn't hurt either.

  I imagine it wouldn't    Unfortunately it'll have to be an older D2 if I'm going to go with Anthem.

[OBF]

Well....I might possibly be coming around to you guy's way of thinking.  Not sure yet and I'll probably keep my eye open for a bargain priced Lex or Anthem so I could try it without much loss if I resold, but....and I'm a little embarrased to say how long I had a Transporter sitting on a shelf because it seemed like too much trouble to get set up.  I intended to have a wired network and had ethernet put in the walls when the house was built and then after getting a 2nd computer and the Transporter I went to terminate the bare Cat5 and 3 of the 4 were fine except for one run with an open circuit (probably from a drywall nail) which was of course my media room.  So, not really wanting wireless and being behind the times in never having burned or ripped a CD in my life I just kept sitting on it.  Well the embarrasment comes in with how easy it was.  A couple min with the Transporter and it was connected wirelessly and I put a CD into my drive and at least with Vista, 10 min later it was in my library without any trouble at all.  Another 5 min and the Transorter was playing stereo analog into my AKSA amp and it was so so much more pleasing than stereo through the Onkyo/ATI combo.  I was even surprised how good some MP3-based internet radio sounded.

I'm a little disturbed that I could have had it working months ago, but on the other hand maybe it's a blessing as analog routed through the Onkyo might have killed it and then I would have decided the Transorter was not worth the cost to me and sold it.

So now I'm at least evaluating a 2nd option which would be to make a lower-cost upgrade to the 885 rather than going top shelf, something like a Marantz 8003 or the upcoming Outlaw pre/pro, plus a stereo preamp, as suggested here, so I'd get hopefully get some improvement across all formats -- stereo being the biggest beneficiary.  Only problem is I really want to stick with balanced connections and that severely limites the options with HT bypass.  I've been interested in an Aesthetix Calypso for a while anyway