[Tone Depth]

I sat down to do some two-channel Serious Listening, and suddenly found myself doing some Philosophical Listening!  I've been enjoying CDs of a number of live performances recently.  During a song there is the great left-to-right and front-to-back perspective, I can locate performers easily and their position doesn't seem to be moving around. 

I noticed the other day, that when the applause starts at the conclusion of a song, that the sound stage seems to invert.  Once the applause starts, I still have the great left-to-right and front-to-back perspective, but the applause seems to be extending back from the locations of the performers, especially if they are acknowledging the audience during the applause.

I know that isn't reality, and my brain can process the applause as behind and/or around me, based on my expectations.  It has put into a clearer perspective something I believe I read on the Von Schweikert Audio web page, about Albert realizing at one point that speakers need to perform as the inverse of microphones, delivering the same information as received by the microphones.  It makes me wonder what other tricks our brains play on us while we are listening.

Has anyone else experience this phenomenon?

[Browntrout]

Do you know what venues the sonds were recorded at?  Could the microphones have been placed behind the performers?

[Wayner]

The applause is now from behind the microphones and have a completely different off-axis response and hence, sound different. This is completely normal. I have recorded many live venues and have witnessed the exact same thing.

Wayner

[Browntrout]

 

[Tone Depth]

The applause is now from behind the microphones and have a completely different off-axis response and hence, sound different. This is completely normal. I have recorded many live venues and have witnessed the exact same thing.

Wayner

Wayner,

When you're listening to one of your speaker systems, does the applause sound to you like it is in front of you, or behind you?  In other words, does your brain place the applause where you would expect it to be or not (This is the psychoacoustics part)?

[Browntrout]

I hope you don't mind me asking for clarification on this Tone Depth but am I right in saying that whilst listening you have the band in front of you then when the applause starts the crowd is behind the band?
  Or are you saying the band is in fornt of you then when the applause starts the applause is behind you in the listening room with the band still in front of you?

[Tone Depth]

I hope you don't mind me asking for clarification on this Tone Depth but am I right in saying that whilst listening you have the band in front of you then when the applause starts the crowd is behind the band?
  Or are you saying the band is in fornt of you then when the applause starts the applause is behind you in the listening room with the band still in front of you?

For clarification, it seems that there aren't any auditory cues to distinguish what is in front of you(microphones) and what is behind you when listening to two channel. 

My expectations are that the band is in front of me/microphones during the performance. 

During applause, the same microphones pick up the applause and my expectation is the audience is behind the microphones and the band remains in front of the microphones. 

Listening critically/philosophically, I hear more distant sounds from the audience, but can't actually distinguish on the basis of listening, if the audience is extending out in front of me or is extending out behind me.

Hope my description makes sense.

[Browntrout]

Ok so if for arguments sake we said the microphones had been placed in the audience, say dead centre but eight to ten rows back would that correlate with the sound you are hearing?
  If you can hear the applause in front of you and behind you that would make sense. Though I find applause to be a very hard sound to orientate as it is eminating from such a large area, usually the whole venue except the stage.
  What records are you refering to? I know Keith Jarret Koln concert is good for ambient sounds and audience applause do you have that one?

[Wayner]

Tone depth,

Well no it's still coming out of the speakers, but it has different phasing to the sound. You can hear it shift when the band quits and the audience starts to make noise. Maybe you could hear that effect if you had dipole speakers (martinlogan) and sat smewhere inbetween (both ways).

Not sure on that one either. Go listen to a live recording and you will hear what I'm talking about.

Wayner

[Tone Depth]

Tone depth,

Well no it's still coming out of the speakers, but it has different phasing to the sound. You can hear it shift when the band quits and the audience starts to make noise. Maybe you could hear that effect if you had dipole speakers (martinlogan) and sat smewhere inbetween (both ways).

Not sure on that one either. Go listen to a live recording and you will hear what I'm talking about.

Wayner

I'll do some more listening, and then get back on this thread.  Tomorrow morning, live recordings, tomorrow night live performance -- maybe those will give me more understanding into what is going on.  The issue seems to be relating theory to what is heard.

To quote Martyo:

"This is the problem with someone like me trying to articulate what I hear, someone asks you what the hell you mean."

[JackD201]

Some engineers invert phase on purpose for the applause I'd say most don't. I have VS speakers and in most cases the applause stays in front of me. Rarely I get a wrap around effect but it still doesn't sound like I'm beside ghosts. Some recordings put some good distance between the band and the audience. A couple of good examples is the cut Matilda from Belafonte in Carnegie Hall or almost any track on Friday Night in San Francisco. These have no phase inversions and everything stays in place. Personally I prefer it this way. Classic rock like Frampton playing live is another story. Psychedelia LOVES phase play  aa