A/V-1RS (sitting on Coffee Table)

rupnok · « **on:** 6 Jul 2009, 02:36 pm »

I have been intrigued by the A/V-1RS for a long time (and the recent thread on the A/V-1RS build has inspired me... but I didn't want to threadjack, hence the separate post).

My situation is that I live in a relatively small apartment, and will for the foreseeable future. Apartment living impacts me in two ways:
(1) My main seating position (couch) is almost always butted against a rear wall
(2) I can not mount speakers on the wall - without incurring serious security deposit losses

I have the X-Statiks/X-Voce for my fronts, and have run X-LS Encores for rears, sitting on coffee tables on either side of my couch, directly firing at me. This is great when I am in the middle of the couch, 5 feet from each speaker, but does not work well when I have people over to watch movies, and folks are 1 feet from the speaker.

I wanted to do the X-Omnis, but have heard that they need "room to breathe", which I don't have (couch - butted to wall).

Given my situation:

(1) Is it possible/recommended for me to use the A/V-1RS, sitting flush from the wall, but resting on my coffee table?

(2) Are the A/V-1RS timbre matched the X-Statiks (using the Peerless India tweeter), and if not, does it matter?

(3) Is it possible for me to build these for under $400 in Satin Black (I don't have woodworking tools, so I need someone to build the enclosures for me, but I have done some soldering before, and may risk building the crossover myself - I've done a few Ninja upgrades to my Classics in the past...)

Thanks

TRADERXFAN · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 Jul 2009, 07:03 pm »

So any holes at all cause big security deposit deductions? Thats quite unusual...

Could you build a stand? The speakers are supposed to fire into the ceiling, from very close. The coffee table is going to be too low.

-Tony

HT cOz · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 Jul 2009, 07:43 pm »

Quote from: TRADERXFAN on 6 Jul 2009, 07:03 pm

So any holes at all cause big security deposit deductions? Thats quite unusual...

That is strange. Can you have holes in the ceiling? A stand or tall shelf would be your only non invasive options.

dvenardos · « **Reply #3 on:** 6 Jul 2009, 07:49 pm »

Quote from: rupnok on 6 Jul 2009, 02:36 pm

(1) Is it possible/recommended for me to use the A/V-1RS, sitting flush from the wall, but resting on my coffee table?

The recommended position for the av-1rs is 16" from the tweeter to the ceiling.
However, to mount them you would be putting in two screw holes or toggle bolts for each speaker so all you would need to do to when you leave is get some spackle and match the paint.

Quote from: rupnok on 6 Jul 2009, 02:36 pm

(2) Are the A/V-1RS timbre matched the X-Statiks (using the Peerless India tweeter), and if not, does it matter?

No, but for surrounds it isn't really an issue.

Quote from: rupnok on 6 Jul 2009, 02:36 pm

(3) Is it possible for me to build these for under $400 in Satin Black (I don't have woodworking tools, so I need someone to build the enclosures for me, but I have done some soldering before, and may risk building the crossover myself - I've done a few Ninja upgrades to my Classics in the past...)

You would need to either paint them yourself or see if you can get a flat pack where you glue the enclosure together yourself to hit that price, but you are close. You can definitely do them for under $500.

HT cOz · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 Jul 2009, 08:07 pm »

These guys made 3 flat packs for me at a very reasonable price http://www.meniscusaudio.com/ you could ask them to give you a quote.

I have read that this stuff works good for painting speakers http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=101

I believe I will use it to paint my speaker bases or maybe even the whole speaker. My project is still months away from really getting started though.

rupnok · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 Jul 2009, 08:13 pm »

Totally understand that they were designed to be 16" from the ceiling. My real question is, given the fact that I would be using these off-spec, is would they still be better than the alternatives:

(1) what I am using right now (X-LSs fired directly at me)
(2) X-Omnis, jutted up against the wall

I don't like the super-directional sound I am getting from my current setup, and am looking for a change. The only other option I've seen is the Mirage omnisat series - but those things are pretty honking expensive...

Quote from: HT cOz on 6 Jul 2009, 07:43 pm

Quote from: TRADERXFAN on 6 Jul 2009, 07:03 pm
So any holes at all cause big security deposit deductions? Thats quite unusual...

That is strange. Can you have holes in the ceiling? A stand or tall shelf would be your only non invasive options.

Those would have to be pretty tall stands to make a big difference - no? The no holes in the wall was indeed a strange stipulation (renting from a private owner). Fact is though, that in my last apartment, the walls were plaster (really old place), and were not at all conducive to toggles or anchor screws.

I am amiss that there is not a good solution for surround sound in a situation like mine (which will persist for the next few years at least).

TRADERXFAN · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 Jul 2009, 09:33 pm »

The benefit of the av1rs design is the reflection off of the ceiling to give you a diffuse sound. If it doesn't strike the ceiling and reflect, then its not going to work properly. The frequency response is adjusted for that reflection.
You could try to point it at the rear wall to make it reflect back which would put it in balance. Although the localization would be somewhat stronger. The ceiling is key due to our poor ability to localize sound vertically. Definitely ask Danny this one, though.

I think the omni would be worse than the ls for this situation.

The very tall stand would be my choice. but I always choose sound quality over appearance, not everyone accepts that tradeoff.

My idea for a "stand" would be more like a tall, somewhat wide (~18"?), panel that lays flat against the wall. This would be painted to match the wall. The speaker is mounted to the board. The board has a large foot that extends away from the wall, possibly under the couch, to stablize it at the base. Might bow in from the wall though. So would have to reinforce it with a stiff oak board or something.

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dvenardos · « **Reply #7 on:** 6 Jul 2009, 10:50 pm »

That is a great idea for the stand. You could make it really cheaply with some 2x4s for the back support braced on the way up. You could also add plywood on the back.

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Quote from: TRADERXFAN on 6 Jul 2009, 09:33 pm

My idea for a "stand" would be more like a tall, somewhat wide (~18"?), panel that lays flat against the wall. This would be painted to match the wall. The speaker is mounted to the board. The board has a large foot that extends away from the wall, possibly under the couch, to stablize it at the base. Might bow in from the wall though. So would have to reinforce it with a stiff oak board or something.

X\
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Danny Richie · « **Reply #8 on:** 6 Jul 2009, 10:52 pm »

That is definitely a tough one.

Clearly a stand mounted speaker aimed right at your head will not work very well at all.

An X-omni has to be out from the wall...

And TRADERXFAN pretty well nailed it too. His proposed stand may not look too cool, but would work.

Another option is to use a 3" or 4" full range driver with a rising response. By that I mean one much hotter in the top end than in the bottom end. You can then make a long skinny enclosure that will put the driver just above your ear level. You'll get some response issues from the wall reflections but it still might not be too bad. It would be more defuse sounding, and it'd be cheap.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #9 on:** 6 Jul 2009, 10:55 pm »

New idea. aa

Build a nice beefy stand to support them just like dvenardos just showed. Then hide the whole thing with a curtain system to make it look like drapes across the back wall. It can have some acoustic benefit as well.

PDR · « **Reply #10 on:** 7 Jul 2009, 12:04 am »

Wow.....wish you were my renter.

If you plan to stay there a couple of years I'd mount them anyway.......

I little mud and a coat of paint...........good as new.

Been in the wall and ceiling industry for 30 yrs.......cant see what a couple of holes
are going to do......mind you I never was one to let authority stand in my way.......

Perry

rupnok · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Jul 2009, 02:56 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 6 Jul 2009, 10:52 pm

That is definitely a tough one.

Clearly a stand mounted speaker aimed right at your head will not work very well at all.

An X-omni has to be out from the wall...

And TRADERXFAN pretty well nailed it too. His proposed stand may not look too cool, but would work.

Another option is to use a 3" or 4" full range driver with a rising response. By that I mean one much hotter in the top end than in the bottom end. You can then make a long skinny enclosure that will put the driver just above your ear level. You'll get some response issues from the wall reflections but it still might not be too bad. It would be more defuse sounding, and it'd be cheap.

Wow! An actual response from Danny - that's what I love about this circle! As you can tell from my setup, I am an AV123 refugee that has traveled down the rabbit hole (first with Ninja upgrades, and now contemplating semi-DIY). I trying to stay under $400 for the entire endeavor, considering that these are just the rears... so extra shelving/stands would put me over the top (plus I don't have much space to build them!) Though I do SINCERELY appreciate the creative suggestions! I am constantly moving, and will probably be going back to school soon... so this is definitely will be a persistent issue for me (and the thought of moving these DIY stands is not appealing).

(1) I could probably pull the X-Omni's about a foot from the wall, but not much further - not enough space, Danny?

(2) Playing with X-LS placement? I've heard some people point them toward the wall and use that reflection. Some other people have tilted them upwards as well? I am totally open to experimenting...

(3) Intrigued by the idea of building a DIY with a 3-4" full range that you mentioned... would love to hear more about that - just for my own edification.

(4) Anyone use Mirage Omnisats? Thoughts on those...

Danny Richie · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 Jul 2009, 03:13 pm »

Quote

(1) I could probably pull the X-Omni's about a foot from the wall, but not much further - not enough space, Danny?

You'd still have a tweeter aimed at your head unless you faced it a different direction. They really need space to create the non-localized sound field.

Quote

(2) Playing with X-LS placement? I've heard some people point them toward the wall and use that reflection. Some other people have tilted them upwards as well? I am totally open to experimenting...

Face them to the wall or face them up and see what you get.

You could place A/V-1RS's just above ear level and still get pretty good results too.

Quote

(3) Intrigued by the idea of building a DIY with a 3-4" full range that you mentioned... would love to hear more about that - just for my own edification.

You'd be lacking in the highs and in overall output levels but you could get a defuse sound field mounting a 3" woofer in the end of a PVC pipe with the driver facing up. It wouldn't take up much floor space.

rupnok · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Jul 2009, 03:34 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 7 Jul 2009, 03:13 pm

Quote
(2) Playing with X-LS placement? I've heard some people point them toward the wall and use that reflection. Some other people have tilted them upwards as well? I am totally open to experimenting...

Face them to the wall or face them up and see what you get.

You could place A/V-1RS's just above ear level and still get pretty good results too.

Interesting... Placing them earlevel could be doable. I am an IKEA nut... so what do you think about this:

Mate one of these $15 Jarpan shelves (45"x11")
<http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20094347>

with one of these $18 Broder feet (25")
<http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00117123>

Total cost of stands is $66, and the are much more easily placeable than something 80" tall...

dvenardos · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Jul 2009, 04:02 pm »

More expensive than 2x4s and some wood screws but you got the idea.

Quote from: rupnok on 7 Jul 2009, 03:34 pm

Interesting... Placing them earlevel could be doable. I am an IKEA nut... so what do you think about this:

Mate one of these $15 Jarpan shelves (45"x11")
<http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20094347>

with one of these $18 Broder feet (25")
<http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00117123>

Total cost of stands is $66, and the are much more easily placeable than something 80" tall...

HT cOz · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Jul 2009, 04:26 pm »

http://www.jcpenney.com/jcp/X6.aspx?DeptID=61238&CatID=61238&Grptyp=PRD&ItemId=15d3934&cmRef=http://www.jcpenney.com/products/C61360.jsp

or

http://www.jcpenney.com/jcp/X6.aspx?DeptID=46606&CatID=46606&Grptyp=PRD&ItemId=14d7c72&cmRef=http://www.jcpenney.com/products/C61360.jsp

Try getting a quote from Meniscus for a flat pack, you may be closer than you think.

rupnok · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Jul 2009, 05:30 pm »

Quote from: HT cOz on 7 Jul 2009, 04:26 pm

http://www.jcpenney.com/jcp/X6.aspx?DeptID=61238&CatID=61238&Grptyp=PRD&ItemId=15d3934&cmRef=http://www.jcpenney.com/products/C61360.jsp

or

http://www.jcpenney.com/jcp/X6.aspx?DeptID=46606&CatID=46606&Grptyp=PRD&ItemId=14d7c72&cmRef=http://www.jcpenney.com/products/C61360.jsp

Try getting a quote from Meniscus for a flat pack, you may be closer than you think.

Thanks HT cOz! Unfortunately, I'd have a problem with bookshelfing in that I have the coffee tables on either side of the couch, so this "shelf" system is going to have slide in right behind my couch - per the suggestion of others above... (also would have HUGE GFAF issues...)

Danny - what am I "giving up" by placing them earlevel...

SPEAKER 1 SPEAKER 2
SS SS
SS SS
SS SS
SS SS
xxx xxx
xxx xxx
xxx COUCH xxx
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXX

SS are the shelfs/planks, which will slide behind and under the couch...

dvenardos · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Jul 2009, 07:49 pm »

Elemental Designs will also do flatpacks too.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Jul 2009, 08:20 pm »

Quote

Danny - what am I "giving up" by placing them earlevel...

If it is right at ear level then from about 1.8kHz and down it will be directional. I'd try to get them just above seated ear level if possible. That will make the whole thing more defuse sounding.

corndog71 · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Jul 2009, 08:52 pm »

Do you have access to a Home Depot or similar store?

Here's what I would do.

Get a 4'x8' sheet of mdf (~$26) Have them split it in half the long way at the store .

That gives you two 2'x8' pieces. Not sure how tall your ceilings are so from here you can either cut an end off or buy another quarter sheet of mdf. Basically following the previous ideas here. These 2 long pieces will each hold one of your X-LS. The trick is to build a shelf on the top at the required angle with a lip at the bottom and just place your X-LS firing up and forward into the room. At the bottom of the long piece you could use the remaining pieces of mdf along with a heavy duty shelf bracket to make a foot which would slide right under your couch. If the long piece bends too much then you may need to add another board onto the long board for greater stiffness.

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I've experimented with an extra pair of bookshelf speakers on top of some 6' tall bookshelves and they worked very well even on the back wall. They gave a spacious and non-localizable sound that was extremely effective. I'm sure the whole project would cost less than $50-100 and they can be painted to suit your taste.They could even be moved to the side walls if you wish.