[topround]

As we all know( or should) different systems will yield different results.
My local dealer carries Vandy's and Proac as well, and the Proac's always came out on top. This was on 4 different occasions, with 4 different groups of people I had brought there. And of course there is the issue of knowing how to set up particular speakers. My local dealer pushes Vandy's first and foremost, for his own reasons. He also carries Proac. He never pushes the Proacs, never. But when he does play them(D15,D25,D28,D38) they always leave a great impression. Most leave thinking it was the best of show.
I heard the Joseph 25's once at a dealer with all Mac gear and it was very nice, but that makes me no expert on this subject.
I heard Merlins sound like shit, and I heard them sound great, there are way too many variables to spout absolutes, hence the frustration in this hobby.

Right now listening to classical radio on my computer speakers(audio engine A5's) and it sounds wonderful.

[oneinthepipe]

Let me twist that just a pinch: What comparable speaker in drivers and layout from each manufacturer would compare best?  Then look at the price and try to rationalize how much more the Joseph may cost because it is in the dealer network and mark-ups are added.  That would essentially be close to what the Salk would cost if Jim sold through a dealer network.  There is the possibility that someone would pay the higher cost if toe-to-toe comparisons revealed that they preferred the Joseph regardless of the price differential.  Just trying to be fair to Joseph speakers since they are sold through dealers it becomes an apples and oranges in the price category.  So you can't select a 2 way from Joseph and compare it to a 3 way, as an example, based on price, otherwise they would not be equipped comparably.

But there isn't distributor/dealer markup on Salk speakers.  Using price as the defining variable, I can only compare a Salk speaker that costs, for example, $4000.00, to a Joseph speaker that costs $4000.00.  Based upon price, I can't compare a Salk speaker that sells for $4000.00 to a Joseph speaker that would only cost $4000.00 if the speaker didn't really cost $8000.00.  Dollars-to-dollars are apples-to-apples, IMO, and not apples-to-oranges.

I collect firearms.  Mass-produced pistols, which are commonly sold through retailers, tend to cost the least.  Limited-production pistols, which are sold directly from the manufacturer or a select number of retailers, tend to cost more.  Custom pistols, which are sold by the gunsmith that hand-builds them, cost the most and tend to be the nicest (assuming that the pistol was built by a master gunsmith).  With speakers, the opposite appears to be true when comparing Salk speakers to limited-production speakers that are sold through a select number of retailers.  The Salk speakers, which are true custom speakers, are sold by the builder but cost less than the limited-production speakers sold through the retailer.

Jim could charge more for his speakers.  Jim could market his speakers through retailers, if he chooses.  Joseph and Proac could sell their speakers directly, if they wanted, and they could arguably sell their speakers for half the price.  Retailers and distributors need to make money, too, to stay in business. If the buyer wants to pay twice the price for a speaker to enable the retailers and distributors to make a profit, more power to the buyer.  For me, I wanted the best speaker that I could afford.  I didn't have any interest in, nor any objection to, distributors or retailers' profits.

[DMurphy]

I didn't quite understand your post either, big red machine, and I usually do.  Maybe we're just misinterpreting something.  Selling through dealers makes it easier to audition speakers, and that may be worth the price premium to some people.  It's just a different business model.  But If you can hear a Salk speaker, then you should compare it with a similarly priced JA speaker. 

[Big Red Machine]

Holy cow.  You can't compare $4000 for HT2 TL against something that Joseph sells for the same amount through a dealer because that would probably be a 2 way bookshelf after all the mark ups.  What's so hard about that?

SO to be fair, you need to compare against some Joseph speaker that has 3 drivers in a similarly sized cabinet with similar response, whatever the price is after all the mark ups.

[robinje]

I don't think anyone "needs" to compare speakers based on any specific criterion.  It's a free country...  feel free to compare speakers in any manner you wish! 

This thread is way off topic.  Does anyone here have any additional information to share about the specific Joseph model that was cited in the original post?  I'm curious, too.   

[oneinthepipe]

Holy cow.  You can't compare $4000 for HT2 TL against something that Joseph sells for the same amount through a dealer because that would probably be a 2 way bookshelf after all the mark ups.  What's so hard about that?

SO to be fair, you need to compare against some Joseph speaker that has 3 drivers in a similarly sized cabinet with similar response, whatever the price is after all the mark ups.

A person can buy diamonds from a private dealer or a retailer (or wholesaler or jewelry store or wherever).  The price of a diamond of similar quality might vary substantially depending on where it is purchased.  If a wholesaler or private dealer is reliable and has great customer service, I would buy from the wholesaler or private dealer.  Your position seems similar, for example, to saying that it is unfair to compare the private dealer's 1.5 carat VS1 clarity F color 4000.00 diamond to the retailer's 1.0 carat SI2 clarity H color 4000.00 diamond because the retailer charges more and the buyer doesn't get a diamond that is as large or as clear or isn't cut as well or the color isn't as white.

[Kris]

Seems like BRM has no spending limit for speakers. If i have a budget of $4K for speakers, i' ll buy the best sounding speaker i can get (with decent looks) without regard to size, weight, number of drivers, or Brand name. Of course i'd like to compare a $4K 3way to a $9K 3way, but that has academic value. Buying and comparing is not the same thing when you have spending limits.

[Big Red Machine]

Why on earth would you select a $4000 speaker from Jim and compare it to $4000 from a retailer and then try and select it based on audio merits? 

Someone said that the Josephs would be very expensive due to the dealer network; turns out that a speaker that LOOKS alot like an HT2 is only $4k as well.  Now you have to compare the drivers and other issues to see what you get for your $4k.  Going out on a limb here, but I would suspect the drivers in that speaker probably make it a $2k speaker.  It might be a good one, but nevertheless, not a factory direct $4k speaker.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue39/joseph_RM25XL.htm
http://www.josephaudio.com/JosephAudio/RM25XL.html

I expected that for $4k the joseph would have been this little guy:  http://www.josephaudio.com/JosephAudio/RM_7XL.html

So if the standard dealer mark-ups are applied, my assumption would be that the components in the Joseph speaker would have to be much lower in performance for the company to make money if they sell them at approx. 50% of the retail price.  Are you guys following this now?

Now go the Joseph lineup, find a speaker that has comparable drivers (in cost and performance)to the HT2 and then tell me what it costs.  It will be more expensive than an HT2 due to mark-ups in the network, and hence make the Salk the better value.

[zybar]

Why on earth would you select a $4000 speaker from Jim and compare it to $4000 from a retailer and then try and select it based on audio merits? 

Someone said that the Josephs would be very expensive due to the dealer network; turns out that a speaker that LOOKS alot like an HT2 is only $4k as well.  Now you have to compare the drivers and other issues to see what you get for your $4k.  Going out on a limb here, but I would suspect the drivers in that speaker probably make it a $2k speaker.  It might be a good one, but nevertheless, not a factory direct $4k speaker.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue39/joseph_RM25XL.htm
http://www.josephaudio.com/JosephAudio/RM25XL.html

I expected that for $4k the joseph would have been this little guy:  http://www.josephaudio.com/JosephAudio/RM_7XL.html

So if the standard dealer mark-ups are applied, my assumption would be that the components in the Joseph speaker would have to be much lower in performance for the company to make money if they sell them at approx. 50% of the retail price.  Are you guys following this now?

Now go the Joseph lineup, find a speaker that has comparable drivers (in cost and performance)to the HT2 and then tell me what it costs.  It will be more expensive than an HT2 due to mark-ups in the network, and hence make the Salk the better value.

Pete,

We already know and acknowledged that Jim's value is much better than any dealer sold speaker.  Is there a reason to keep pounding on this point?

George

[zybar]

As we all know( or should) different systems will yield different results.
My local dealer carries Vandy's and Proac as well, and the Proac's always came out on top. This was on 4 different occasions, with 4 different groups of people I had brought there. And of course there is the issue of knowing how to set up particular speakers. My local dealer pushes Vandy's first and foremost, for his own reasons. He also carries Proac. He never pushes the Proacs, never. But when he does play them(D15,D25,D28,D38) they always leave a great impression. Most leave thinking it was the best of show.
I heard the Joseph 25's once at a dealer with all Mac gear and it was very nice, but that makes me no expert on this subject.
I heard Merlins sound like shit, and I heard them sound great, there are way too many variables to spout absolutes, hence the frustration in this hobby.

Right now listening to classical radio on my computer speakers(audio engine A5's) and it sounds wonderful.

Very interesting Mike.

Next time I get a chance, I will try and hear the ProAc's.

Does their quality and performance go down the line?

Do they have a nice model that is around the $4k the OP is willing to spend?

George

[fsimms]

And concerning the Joseph Audio speaker: 2-way Patented Asymmetrical Infinite Slope Crossover? Is this just a gimmick or are there any real advantages in regards to this aspect of the design?

On the JA Pearl, I thought they had a very narrow sweet spot.  I thought that was due to the crossover as my HT1's are much better.  I know Dennis worries about dispersion alot.

Bob

[Big Red Machine]

 Your position seems similar, for example, to saying that it is unfair to compare the private dealer's 1.5 carat VS1 clarity F color 4000.00 diamond to the retailer's 1.0 carat SI2 clarity H color 4000.00 diamond because the retailer charges more and the buyer doesn't get a diamond that is as large or as clear or isn't cut as well or the color isn't as white.

That's pretty much what I am saying.  If you want the former but can't find the deal, then either you settle for less with the same dollar limit or you spend more to get the performance you seek.  Since we get all fan-boyish around here, I was trying to be fair.  If picking two speakers to compare, they should be designed similarly and equipped similarly, else it is a waste of time if only using cost as the only criteria.

So comparing the HT2 against this model Joseph is probably like comparing it to a Songtower.  Apples to oranges.

ANd George, never mind, it's not about value, it's about comparing two comparably equipped speakers, not two comparably priced speakers.

[jsalk]

I have not heard the Joseph Audio speakers, so I can't comment on the sound quality (and wouldn't anyway).  Joseph Audio is an outstanding company and I'm sure they did a good job with this design.

Since no one has commented on this to date, I thought it might be of value to point out the quality differences with the drivers themselves.

The HT2-TL's utilize the Seas W18's magnesium cone drivers from Seas Excel line.  These are the best drivers Seas produces.  The aluminum coned drivers are from Seas "premium" line and cost quite a bit less.  The ribbon tweeters in the HT2-TL's are also higher priced drivers.  So the drivers in the HT2-TL's are higher performing to begin with. 

Better drivers do not necessarily guarantee a better speaker, but all else being equal, they do provide higher peformance foundation to build upon.

- Jim

[toobluvr]

Very interesting Mike.

Next time I get a chance, I will try and hear the ProAc's.

Does their quality and performance go down the line?

Do they have a nice model that is around the $4k the OP is willing to spend?

George

I once owned the Proac Response 2.5 which listed for $4500.  I believe it is now 2 versions old, having been replaced by the D25, which was replaced by the D28.....I think.

Very nice speaker but personally I would own others at the same price point.
I also owned a comparably priced big Spendor at the same time, and I would choose it over the Proac.   But different strokes for different folks.  I like chocolate, you like vanilla.  Blah, blah, blah.

A few months ago I compared and contrasted the two.  See my comments in Reply #32 here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65041.20

[doug s.]

...And George, never mind, it's not about value, it's about comparing two comparably equipped speakers, not two comparably priced speakers...

if you have a budget, then it is only about comparing comparably priced, speakers; nothing else matters.  ie: what is the best sound i can get for $4k?  for me, this would include used, as well as new; dealer-direct, as well as bricks-n-mortar sales. 

ymmv,

doug s.

[doug s.]

Very interesting Mike.

Next time I get a chance, I will try and hear the ProAc's.

Does their quality and performance go down the line?

Do they have a nice model that is around the $4k the OP is willing to spend?

George

i think proac's are awesome, if not necessarily the best walue when purchased new.  i have heard 1sc's, tablette 8 ref sigs (which i own), tablette 2000 signatures, response 1.5's and response 2.5's.  at retail $4k, i would love to hear the tri-towers.  but, i would much rather pay only $1500 for them:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1249708572&/ProAc-(Reduced)-Response-Tri-T

[topround]

I agree,if 4k is your budget, than whatever you can get for $4k counts, be it new or used. And we all know 4$k used will buy a lot more than 4$k new.

[Rocket]

Hi Guys,

Just thought I would chime in.  I have salk sound ht2's and I think from memory the mid/bass drivers are $200US each?  I also have a pair of nuforce s9's that use the seas 'premium' drivers that cost between $80 - 90US each.

The seas premium driver is a nice sounding component but the seas excel driver is at least another 20 - 25 percent better.  The seas excel driver is more tranparent and is better in every department.

The retail price for a pair of nuforce s9's retail for about $7500au.  My ht2's cost me $5400au to import them into Australia.  The nuforce s9 is a nice sounding audiophile speaker but it isn't anywhere near as good as the ht2.

I personally think that the purchaser should check out a similiar pair of joseph audio speakers and compare them with the properly set up salk sound ht2's and I think they would be impressed with the sound.

Regards

Rod