Why do you like tube gear?

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #20 on:** 1 Jul 2009, 06:57 am »

Dear JACKD201,
SO, your fluidity is a good thing.
I was talk of another strange effect that happen when I was listen a BAT VK-75SE with a AvantGarde Uno or Duo speakers(I do not know which) in 2005 at a house of a rich Audiophile man, when after 3 hours of orchestral music (easy listening) in medium SPL, the BAT VK75 sound turn to be liquid, seems the horns outpour water, not sound ! I figure out the BAT output transformer have saturated or some other thing I do not know.
I found this Liquid effect very curious. Do this Liquidity effect I said is the Liquidness effect the Tube Audiophiles love ? or not ?
Gustavo

JackD201 · « **Reply #21 on:** 1 Jul 2009, 07:10 am »

You mean the sound became thick Gustavo? Yes curious indeed. BAT VK Amps using 6c33c-Bs are usually sweet and airy. Single Ended Bridged Parallel, not a very common configuration for commercial amps. After 3 hours maybe it was the voice coils of the AvanteGarde that overheated. I believe they were designed with more modest power in mind but I could be very wrong on this point.

I had VK-150s a few years back and I would have parties with the music blaring (lots of Vodka, Scotch and Tequila aa) from about 9pm to up until dawn and the OPTs never showed any signs of saturation even with speakers of only 92dB sensitivity and lows of 4 ohms. That's the only explanation I can think of right now.

Yes, I do not like thick sound either. It's hard to dance in quicksand

I believe what you mean is "liquid" not fluid. Fluid in applied physics also refers to air not just liquids. I just realized that, like me, you are not from the USA or the UK.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #22 on:** 1 Jul 2009, 07:22 am »

Dear JACKD201,
The sound becomes a bit slow, maybe foggy, I remember now, he used the pre BAT VK-51SE and the VK75 not in the wall mains (127Volts), but in just one pro FURMAN power stabilizer, and his room was most w o n d e r f u l ( BIG, about 20 ft W, 10 ft H and 30ft D).

One time a repair man friend of mine, full turn down the volume control of this preamp VK51-SE for a change of a cable or some thing like it, and the preamp fuse just blow or burn, and they do not have anyone on hand, there is a week waiting for a new fuse from the dealer in Sao Paulo city.
For this I have some fear of the BAT brand.

JackD201 · « **Reply #23 on:** 1 Jul 2009, 07:30 am »

Quote from: FULLRANGEMAN on 1 Jul 2009, 07:22 am

Dear JACKD201,
The sound becomes a bit slow, maybe foggy, I remember now, he used the pre BAT VK-51SE and the VK75 not in the wall mains (127Volts), but in just one pro FURMAN power stabilizer, and his room was most w o n d e r f u l ( BIG, about 20 ft W, 10 ft H and 30ft D).

I understand what you mean now. So I added to my post above. "Liquid" sound can be nice too as long as it is still light like sparkling water and not thick like crude oil. Just my opinion.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #24 on:** 1 Jul 2009, 07:32 am »

One time a repair man friend of mine, full turn down the volume control of this preamp VK51-SE for a change of a cable or some thing like it, and the preamp fuse just blow or burn, and they do not have anyone on hand, there is a week waiting for a new fuse from the dealer in Sao Paulo city.
For this I have some fear of the BAT brand, and these BAT amps are very expensive.

Thankyou for your information JackD201, I will sleep now.
Gustavo

JackD201 · « **Reply #25 on:** 1 Jul 2009, 07:41 am »

I blew many B+ fuses on my VK-150s. Six of them maybe and always in the same positions. It turned out that I had two bad tubes. They didn't blow anymore after I changed the tubes. I got my replacement fuses from a hardware store chain. They were not hard to find. It bothered me for a while but then I figured better tha guys at BAT be careful and let the fuses blow easily than something else blowing up.

Well, I've moved on from BAT but all in all my memories of BAT are still good.

zybar · « **Reply #26 on:** 1 Jul 2009, 11:09 am »

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 1 Jul 2009, 05:38 am

Quote
Why do you like tube gear?

Keeps me warm when its winter.....

And in the summer too.

A small price to pay for my musical enjoyment.

George

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #27 on:** 1 Jul 2009, 01:41 pm »

Because they are so cheap and cute.

However tube amps are not always the end all be all. Having owned an ARC tube amp (Stereophile Class A rated) I can say it was very good, but not as good as the SS amp that replaced it, and that wasn't because of a difficult load either.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #28 on:** 1 Jul 2009, 02:48 pm »

Quote from: JackD201 on 1 Jul 2009, 06:32 am

For me fluidity is the way musical events are allowed to flow into one another. For me tubes in general manage to keep the individual acoustic envelopes more complete than most SS only designs which at least to my ears either truncate low level decay or stair step them so only the leading edges of the formants trail off stripped of harmonics. All in all a less realistic portrayal because aside from the tonal perspective, spatial propagation is affected too, rendering it flat or somewhat static. I believe in your country said propagation is often referred to as "bloom".

I put the harmonics in bold because inevitably someone will bring up the fact that tubes do in fact introduce harmonic distortion. My answer is as long as it is complementary, I can live with these distortions. Clearly I am not from the zero distortion camp being more subjectivist.

So fluidity for me is not the texture (syrupy or smooth) but rather the ability to have high degrees of resolution even at the lowest levels. This is not to say that all tubes do this though. I've heard some very big tube amps that unfortunately do not have this characteristic in ample quantity. Big Push Pull amps seem to have dynamics and transient speed as the priority. Low powered amps poorly executed with high self noise kill this advantage too. I say not the texture because if an amp is too syrupy or smooth by nature the it can take away from recordings that actually NEED some bite like Big Band stuff.

Fluid = Music flows

Very well said.

Texture, contrast, low level resolution, . . . . and now fluidity. These are the things that really shine with single ended triodes. That's why I prefer tubes.

avahifi · « **Reply #29 on:** 1 Jul 2009, 03:11 pm »

Why do I like tube amplfiers?

Well maybe because they run very hot, require adjustments and occasional output tube replacements, cost a lot per watt, are heavy, inefficient, and look cute when they glow in the dark.

NOT!

I like tube amps because I think that the level of ultimate musical reproduction possible with a tube amp design has not yet been thoroughly explored or resolved. They keep me thinking about circuit design and new possibilities.

Right now I am running a 30 watt per channel prototype tube amp on a set of 84 dB efficient Salk HT3 speakers, ones that normally require at least 200 watts per channel to "turn on". The little tube amp sounds like it has 200 watts per channel! Effortless driving the HT3s reasonably loud (loud enough to get your attention, make you listen, and stop doing whatever else you were trying to do). Clean, amazingly transparent, controlled, and very deep reaching bass performance. Everyone knows this is impossible with a little simple tube amp into this tough a load. Why does it do this? Honestly I don't know. It shouldn't, but it does. Can I build it repeatably without even knowing where the magic is coming from. Yes I can. But what did we do to get this level of performance? I really don't know. Does it measure any better on the test bench than previous designs? No, except that a tiny bit of output "ripple" on the top and bottom edges of high frequency square waves (an issue we previously blamed on the output transformers) just vanished. Huh?

I would like to find out. That will keep me thinking and energized for a few more years anyway even though I just hit 70 years old. It is really nice to hit upon something that you thought was impossible. Now I need to figure out why. In the meantime, do I like tube gear?

You bet I do!

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

P.S. The object of this post is simply to try and get AC readers to think more about "what they think they know". If some company was to buy a sample of this amp, dissect it, and put it into production themselves, I would not even be upset as that way more people might experience music playback beyond their expectations at a rational cost. Just credit me as the designer please. This is a case that will upset your established knowledge of what is possible and make you think.

Eric · « **Reply #30 on:** 1 Jul 2009, 03:17 pm »

One of the things I love about tube gear is the ability to taylor the sound by swapping out tubes.

JoshK · « **Reply #31 on:** 1 Jul 2009, 03:24 pm »

Why *I* like tube gear.

1) it just sounds better most/many of the times
2) I like to build my own stuff as I think this is where the real performance benefits are and tubes are inherently linear and more straightforward in their topology. I don't have to layout circuit boards.

JackD201 · « **Reply #32 on:** 1 Jul 2009, 06:22 pm »

Belated Happy Birthday Frank. My Birthday wish for you is that you figure out what it is you did with that over achieving amp!

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #33 on:** 1 Jul 2009, 09:20 pm »

Quote from: JackD201 on 1 Jul 2009, 07:41 am

I blew many B+ fuses on my VK-150s. Six of them maybe and always in the same positions. It turned out that I had two bad tubes. They didn't blow anymore after I changed the tubes. I got my replacement fuses from a hardware store chain. They were not hard to find. It bothered me for a while but then I figured better tha guys at BAT be careful and let the fuses blow easily than something else blowing up. Well, I've moved on from BAT but all in all my memories of BAT are still good.

Dear JackD201,
Here in Brazil is not secure buy fuses for expensive Audio equip. in a hardware store, cause the fuses they sell are very poorly made.
Maybe could invalid the amp Warranty etc, as the audio shops are very picky here...
Six blow fuses is a lot of testing for the amp circuit.
Do you already discover what was the problem with the BAT 6C33 tubes ?
How many hour is the time life of the 6C33 in your BAT ?
I forgot to mention that I like tube amps because they allow the use of Hard Wiring, that is more reliable than the usual Circuit Boards,
mainly in hot Class A amps.

Pez · « **Reply #34 on:** 1 Jul 2009, 11:21 pm »

First lets get into why I dislike solid state in most applications. I find it grainy, midrange anaemic, unbearably bright in treble, the performance is dead and unenthusiastic, and the overall sound is forward.

second lets get into what I like about solid state. Bass impact/clarity

Ok now why do I love tubes? Realistic performance. Yes when you pick it apart I love the midrange "warmth" and the wonderful laid back nature of the treble from most tube performances, but all of those are what I consider to be components of what is a more realistic performance. Yes many would argue that tubes add coloration with the obvious insinuation that solid state or digital doesn't, but when it comes down to it to this musician/audiophile/tweakers ears they are just more realistic.

The weakness of tubes can be (not always, but certainly with my tube amp) bass damping, depth, and impact. Which is the only reason I use a solid state amp for the lows. To me it's the perfect marriage of the two differing technologies. Tubes for the mids and highs, SS for the bass.

JackD201 · « **Reply #35 on:** 2 Jul 2009, 01:30 pm »

Quote from: FULLRANGEMAN on 1 Jul 2009, 09:20 pm

Quote from: JackD201 on 1 Jul 2009, 07:41 am
I blew many B+ fuses on my VK-150s. Six of them maybe and always in the same positions. It turned out that I had two bad tubes. They didn't blow anymore after I changed the tubes. I got my replacement fuses from a hardware store chain. They were not hard to find. It bothered me for a while but then I figured better tha guys at BAT be careful and let the fuses blow easily than something else blowing up. Well, I've moved on from BAT but all in all my memories of BAT are still good.
Dear JackD201,
Here in Brazil is not secure buy fuses for expensive Audio equip. in a hardware store, cause the fuses they sell are very poorly made.
Maybe could invalid the amp Warranty etc, as the audio shops are very picky here...
Six blow fuses is a lot of testing for the amp circuit.
Do you already discover what was the problem with the BAT 6C33 tubes ?
How many hour is the time life of the 6C33 in your BAT ?
I forgot to mention that I like tube amps because they allow the use of Hard Wiring, that is more reliable than the usual Circuit Boards,
mainly in hot Class A amps.

Apparently, after one year or so two tubes just gave up on me. I used to plug the amps straight into the wall. I got a power conditioner after noticing my lights changing in brightness (I live in a condo building). After that I never had problems again. I kept the amps for another two years.

Here's what I suspect happened. I had one bad tube. Problem is that I didn't know the fuse blew initially as I was working on my computer and was just listening to background music. When I logged off, I noticed the left channel was a little off. It was weak. Upon closer inspection the pilot light was off meaning the fuse had blown. Because the VK-150s are auto biasing, I suspect it distributed the load to the other 3 output tubes. The second weakest one thus gave way too. Still at that point I did not think the tubes were weak. I don't know why I didn't call the dealer right away. I just assumed that the fuses blew because of poor electricity. In hindsight though, if this was the case, then it should have been the main fuse and not the B+ fuse to go. After replacing fuses a number of times, I finally called the dealer. He called Victor K and Victor said it was probably the tubes. The dealer then gave me 2 free tubes. Great dealer that guy as the warranty doesn't cover the tubes. All was well from that point. Chances are the tubes were damaged in transit from the US to the Philippines even if the tubes were securely packed.

6c33 is still one of my favorite tubes ever despite the heat they generate and luckily aren't that expensive. I liked them in my BATs, love them on my Lamms and also love them on my friend's Fourier OTLs.

Anyhow, it's true that tubes require more care and attention but to me I think it's all worth it.

Niteshade · « **Reply #36 on:** 2 Jul 2009, 01:36 pm »

Musical Intimacy, Impeccable Realism, Emotional Involvement
Infinite Customizations
User-serviceable parts (tubes)
Low parts count
Resale value
Unbelievable design potential
Tube glow- visual effects, especially at night are a welcome sight.
Tube styles & variations (tube rolling)

There are many other things I cherish as well.

dangerbird · « **Reply #37 on:** 2 Jul 2009, 11:20 pm »

Aside what has already been said,, tubes remind me of my childhood, our family radio,,our first stereo which was a "Silvertone" tubed console, that we still have,,something quite nostalgic about tubes. aa

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #38 on:** 3 Jul 2009, 01:30 am »

Dear JackD201,
This BAT owner said the maker said the 6C33 last only 4 years in the BAT VK75 ( maybe 3 K hours) and the Joule Electra brand claims the 6C33 in his VZN OTL last full 5K to 10K hours. 10 K hours is not too much for a 6C33 ?

JackD201 · « **Reply #39 on:** 3 Jul 2009, 02:17 am »

I honestly don't know Gustavo. Perhaps we should ask the experts in the Lab Circle what factors determine tube life as it relates to particular circuit design. I can only guess that the OTL you mentioned has lower plate operating voltage than the BAT. Also I've read before that autobias amps eat up tubes faster. This is all second hand information but I'm sure the AC tech gurus can give us definite answers.