[DVV]

Well, we looked at power amps, and will keep on as long as there is interest in the topic, but we also need to move on.

The next question is - what makes CD players sound different?

Their drive mechanism?
The color of the laser?
Are blue lasers better than standard?
Their power supplies?
Their DACs?
16, 18, 20 or 24 bit DACs?
Upsample cabailities?
Inert cases?
Their analog sections?
Their discrete analog sections?
Their tube analog sectons?
Their prices?

Or all of the above?

Or none of the above?

Perhaps a mixture of some of the above?

Cheers,
DVV

[karthikn]

Ah, perhaps your discussion will help bring out how/whether those CD spray on treatments help

[DVV]

Ah, perhaps your discussion will help bring out how/whether those CD spray on treatments help

Not having tried them myself, I can hardly comment, but if they do make a difference, I see no reason why they should nto be discussed. Hopefully, other members willhave tried it and will comment.

I can tell you one thing - take a CD you dearly love and know well, freeze it in your deep freeze section of your fridge, leave it there for two or three days, then take the CD, put it in your lowermost section of the fridge for a day, monne it to your topmost section of the fridge and leave it there for another day. Then take it out and listen to iut, you will notice details you didn't notice before.

The only spray you might need with that is an anti-wife spray. She will surely think you mad.

Cheers,
DVV

[tmd]

Now this I am really into right now. I hope it is as accomplished as the power amp thread.
The single biggest thing I want to know at the moment is whether using a PC with ripped WAV files as a transport is a good idea? Surely there will be no bit errors as the PC just spits it out very efficiently and if it did so with bit errors, it wouldn't work.
If it is a good form of transport, has anyone tried this? Would the soundcard play any role in the sound quality then? Is it easy to add an external DAC to a soundcard? Would the PC benefit from a superclock type device?
It could be a really cool setup with the size of harddrives today. No more handling and storing hundreds of discs carefully. Just rip them all in and pack them away. Set up a playlist and let it go for hours. Being a lazy sod, I would love it.
Neil.

[tmd]

Tweaks I have heard of:
lightly sand the center of the CD, the area that is usually see through. Also sand the edge of the disc. I heard a distinct difference in an A/B at a friends house recently.
Insert an LED (Green I think) so that it points up into the transport near the laser. I haven't heard this one.
Antistatic mat for top of CD. Haven't heard it but they are a little expensive I think.
Use a black marker on the CD. Not sure about this one but some people swear by it.
Who has more of these?
Neil.

[DVV]

Now this I am really into right now. I hope it is as accomplished as the power amp thread.
The single biggest thing I want to know at the moment is whether using a PC with ripped WAV files as a transport is a good idea? Surely there will be no bit errors as the PC just spits it out very efficiently and if it did so with bit errors, it wouldn't work.
If it is a good form of transport, has anyone tried this? Would the soundcard play any role in the sound quality then? Is it easy to add an external DAC to a soundcard? Would the PC benefit from a superclock type device?
It could be a really cool setup with the size of harddrives today. No more handling and storing hundreds of discs carefully. Just rip them all in and pack them away. Set up a playlist and let it go for hours. Being a lazy sod, I would love it.
Neil.

Neil, three years ago, I put together a PC specifically intended for CD copying. Built from the ground up for it, and I've been doing that for 19 years now, putting together "perfect" PCs for various magazines, where I am a contributor or editor.

There are so many problems with that that I would never use it as a serious option. Too many adverse factors working against you, from shitty switchmode power supplies, to poor drives, to much vibration, to generally very poor quality sound cards, all which conspires to ruin you sound.

If you're into copying, buy a Marantz 6000 copy machine, costs 400 quid in the UK, and it's a damn fine machine, probably the best out there for sane money.

If you want long continuous playing times, buy a CD player with multiple CD capacity, throw them all in, and be free for 5 hours or so.

Cheers,
DVV

[hairofthedawg]

No measuring devices except for my ears, but I was pretty pleased with the sound of some .wavs I ripped recently, at least when I used the right player.  Many have said winamp works for them, but the version I had didnt and I ended up using Windows Media Player(WMP).  Even the mp3s I used to have sounded pretty good.  My setup is far from optimum and I wouldnt use it as a reference system, but for parties, or just being lazy, I feel it is good enough.  My computer is a P4 1.7 with 1GB of RDRAM, standard WD hard drives, a cardeluxe running through 25 foot TRS to RCA cables into a Classe SSP 30 preamp then into the rest of my system.  My only complaint has to do with the time between songs on WMP, which is too long IMO and I can hear faint pops that sound like what you hear on a record shortly after you put the needle down.  So far all I have ripped are cds, but as soon as I get a new pulley I am going to start ripping my vinyl.   Oh yeah, I do not use the CD player in my PC to rip, I run another twenty five foot section of cable from my other preamp to the PC and rip using CoolEditPro.

cheers,

Dick

[tmd]

Maybe you guys misunderstood me. I thought about the PC as source to improve sound quality, not to be able to rip CDs or have a jukebox. I do use a five disc machine at the moment.
From your reply Dejan, it sounds like the PC as transport is a non starter. It obviously introduces more problems than it might solve. However, it wouldn't be difficult to use a laptop with external soundcard which would get rid of the sloppy power supply and using an Extigy or other external device, you have the option to supply it with better power.
I did read somewhere once that getting the one and zeros from a PC would be beneficial as it would clean up the bit errors completely and help delay skew also. Did I read it wrong?
Norhtec has a few different devices that will run without fans and Michael seems to think that the ANALOGUE out from the Panda sounds quite good.
Neil.

[DVV]

Tweaks I have heard of:
lightly sand the center of the CD, the area that is usually see through. Also sand the edge of the disc. I heard a distinct difference in an A/B at a friends house recently.
Insert an LED (Green I think) so that it points up into the transport near the laser. I haven't heard this one.

Blue, actually, blue LED. It works on the stochastic resonance principle, YBA did it first, now everybody is into it.

Antistatic mat for top of CD. Haven't heard it but they are a little expensive I think.
Use a black marker on the CD. Not sure about this one but some people swear by it.
Who has more of these?
Neil.

How about classic cures, like better power supplies, split digital and analog transformers, better op amp, etc?

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

Maybe you guys misunderstood me. I thought about the PC as source to improve sound quality, not to be able to rip CDs or have a jukebox. I do use a five disc machine at the moment.
From your reply Dejan, it sounds like the PC as transport is a non starter. It obviously introduces more problems than it might solve. However, it wouldn't be difficult to use a laptop with external soundcard which would get rid of the sloppy power supply and using an Extigy or other external device, you have the option to supply it with better power.
I did read somewhere once that getting the one and zeros from a PC would be beneficial as it would clean up the bit errors completely and help delay skew also. Did I read it wrong?
Norhtec has a few different devices that will run without fans and Michael seems to think that the ANALOGUE out from the Panda sounds quite good.
Neil.

Neil, spend some heavy dough on Turtle Beach sound cards and you'll hear Wadia-class sounds from your PC, but you'll be paying almost Wadia class money for it too.

I used a CL Sound Blaster Live! Full Pack card, but a very digital mate of mine from the UK, Tom Browne, for no reason at all, without any provocation, up and sent me a 39 quid sound card he said was a better deal. And in terms of sound, he was 100% right; it may be a no-name product, but it sounds way better than the much more expensive CL SB.  I'll try to get Tom to join up here, he's the right man for this topic, plus a mravellous guy in general.

My experience with PCs used as CD players/recorders is that their by far weakest points are their shitty power supplies, which is curable with a DeZorel filter (as I am using now) at least to a point, and their vibration, which is simply not curable under normal conditions.

Hence, I prefer to take a stock CD player and mod it to kingdom come, at least I have a good chance of doing something worthwhile. Using a laptop will NOT cure the power supply blues, and will at best reduce the vibration problem somewhat. That's "somewhat", meaning not much.

Not that you have to pay outlandish amounts of money for outstanding CD players, either. Example, my own Yamaha CDX-993. Costs around 400 quid in the UK, is not sold in North America (ask Yamaha why not, i have no idea). It has two rather large power transformers, a very good Sony professional quality (though there are better) drive, completely shielded in ABS plastics. The analog stage uses 4 6,800uF capacitors, more than many commercial 100 watts per channel amps. It has bracing all around, and the power supply is totally shielded in a Faraday cage. It upsamples a 16-bit signal to a notional 20-but signal, and its output stage is very properly dividied into the three logical sections: current to voltage converter (uses cheap op amps, I changed them for AD826AN), discrete low pass filter and discrete output stage proper.

All that was left for me to do to its 9.6 kilo (app. 21 lbs) mass was to take off its stock feet and install SoundCare spikes and change those shoddy op amps for ADs. And I got a CD player I'd have to pay at least two to three times the price from others. Doesn't sound like CD player at all, much more like a good turntable, except for the very digital signal to noise ratios.

Now, with a unit like that, why would I bother with a PC, except for making totally illegal copies?

Cheers,
DVV

[Ferdi]

Replacement clocks for CDP. I use a Tent Clock but others have good experience with products from LCAudio etc.

I also found that a better powercord made quite a bit of difference.

Damping of resonances also made some difference. My CDP weighs 17kg and that must help. I have it sitting on a wood chopping block and it sounds clearer than with the soft rubber mat I used before.

Another good discussion.....

[tmd]

I have a Sony SCD-775ES modded by SACDmods in the USA. The mod included Clock, output caps and PS mods. I added an AD826 chip a few weeks ago after I removed the surface mount NJM 2114. I am next going to try to separate the power supplies. Matthew wasn't doing that when I got the mods done. I am really into this modding at the moment but would like to understand more about the whole picture. I want to keep on modding the Sony as I go on. I would love to try batteries for the audio stage to see if it sounds much better. I would also like to try to augment the enclosure somehow. I haven't looked at it yet.
As far as the illegal copying goes, I believe I have one 'illegally copied' CD in my possession which was given to me by the composer and performer of the piece. There is nothing illegal about ripping all ones own music to a hard drive as far as I am concerned. However, that wasn't the reason for bringing this up as a solution.
I don't understand either the power or vibration problems. Dejan, please explain them to me in detail.
First, if I use a laptop, depending on the unit and its configuration, I will be able to run it off battery power for several hours at a time. Isn't battery power as clean as it gets?
How does vibration come into it if the unit only acts as a digital source? Here's my very laymans way of explaining myself;
In a conventional transport, the information is taken off the disc in real time with no chance of re reading anything that is missed on the first read. In this case, I can see vibration upsetting the laser and resulting in missed bits. There are probably other ways for vibration to affect it also but I don't understand how.
In a PC, if vibration were to upset the stream, the PC could re read the data many, many times and still keep the feed to the digital output device coherent as it is probably buffered in ram aswell as the hard drive being fast enough on its own.
I am really glad to be able to ask questions that have been bugging me for ages. Hopefully someone can enlighten me.
Thanks, Neil.

[nathanm]

Dejan said:

I can tell you one thing - take a CD you dearly love and know well...

Wait right there!  Already you have solved 99% of your "problems".

[DVV]

Dejan said:

I can tell you one thing - take a CD you dearly love and know well...

Wait right there!  Already you have solved 99% of your "problems".

Duh! I have?

Geee... didn't even know I had a problem.

You've been using that then, have you Nate? Share some experiences with us, buddy.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

...
I don't understand either the power or vibration problems. Dejan, please explain them to me in detail.

Simple - vibration is connected to jitter, insofar that vibration promotes jitter. Jitter, as you probably know, is a digital form of distortion, a time misalignment which reaches our ears as blurred sound.

First, if I use a laptop, depending on the unit and its configuration, I will be able to run it off battery power for several hours at a time. Isn't battery power as clean as it gets?

Battery power may rid you of switchmode power supply problems, but it does nothing for vibration induced errors - and you still have hard disk virations, cooling fan vibration and of course, the unavoidable CD drive vibrations.

How does vibration come into it if the unit only acts as a digital source? Here's my very laymans way of explaining myself;
In a conventional transport, the information is taken off the disc in real time with no chance of re reading anything that is missed on the first read. In this case, I can see vibration upsetting the laser and resulting in missed bits. There are probably other ways for vibration to affect it also but I don't understand how.

You are only half right in assuming there's only one read; in real life, better CD players will attempt at least two, and often three rereads before giving up on you. The fact that you don't hear them is caused by local memory buffers which are there precisely for that reason.

In a PC, if vibration were to upset the stream, the PC could re read the data many, many times and still keep the feed to the digital output device coherent as it is probably buffered in ram aswell as the hard drive being fast enough on its own.
I am really glad to be able to ask questions that have been bugging me for ages. Hopefully someone can enlighten me.
Thanks, Neil.

True, you can have a PC reread data as many as 7, even 8 times. But we seem to be talking about two different reads - I refer to the reading of the CD drive. This is far slower and less reliable than a hard drive, which is even mechanically, 10 time sfaster and hence smoother than the CD, and it doesn't have to cope with so-so burned CDs. But, error correction on hard disks is different to CDs, and ultimately, to pack anything on your hard drive, you have to take it off a CD first. Now, if your source CD is not much, what's written on your HDD is also not much, so where are you?

Neil, however you look at it, if you source your music from the PC, you are bound to use a PC-base CD player. Your only alternative is to have such a sound card as will accept an S/PDIF coaxial signal from an external CD player, in this case a simple read mechanism, but then you are bound by the card's DACs, or to simply use an external CD player for everything, and "tape" the analog signal of your HDD. This "taping" in fact means taking an analog signal and digitizing it, in which case you are once again relegated to your PC sound card.

In short, as ever, you can't be just 5 minutes pregnant.

Cheers,
DVV

[Guan]

How about classic cures, like better power supplies, split digital and analog transformers, better op amp, etc?

I've read about these 'best practices' and when I ordered my custom 6021W pencil tube DAC I asked for the works to be installed. I got separate transformers for digital/analogue, dual power supply chokes, Audio Note paper-in-oil signal caps, point-to-point pure silver wiring, kiwame resistors and WBT rca jacks. The result was the best digital (or should I say un-digital ) sound I've ever heard in my system, until it blew up    Long story but I'll post my impressions again after its repaired.

Guan

[DVV]

How about classic cures, like better power supplies, split digital and analog transformers, better op amp, etc?

I've read about these 'best practices' and when I ordered my custom 6021W pencil tube DAC I asked for the works to be installed. I got separate transformers for digital/analogue, dual power supply chokes, Audio Note paper-in-oil signal caps, point-to-point pure silver wiring, kiwame resistors and WBT rca jacks. The result was the best digital (or should I say un-digital ) sound I've ever heard in my system, until it blew up    Long story but I'll post my impressions again after its repaired.

Guan

Low grade oil, huh? They should have used Castrol GTX with Protec.

Kidding aside, I know what you mean at least to some extent. That's what I loved about my Yamaha, it doesn't sound like a digital component at all, at least the way we generally have them. If anything, I could accuse it of being a bit too lush, too warm - my very first such accusation since the appearance of CD players. For the money, it's a world champion, I'll wager.

Of course, it's not to be compared to a Wadia, that would be like comparing a Mini with a Maserati, but then, Wadia has Wadia prices.

Cheers,
DVV

[Guan]

Low grade oil, huh?  They should have used Castrol GTX with Protec.

More like fully synthetic Mobil 1 But it's probably some kind of vegetable oil...

Actually I prefer warm and lush to super detailed and analytical. But a balanced combination of both would be the best compromise...

Guan

[Jay S]

Actually I prefer warm and lush to super detailed and analytical. But a balanced combination of both would be the best compromise...

Guan

I agree - analytical is not tolerable for long periods.  What's hard is that at some point the audiophilia nervosa takes over and we start to crave the best of both worlds.... $$$$    

I think that's why I enjoy having 2 systems.  My bedroom system (centered around a 300B tube integrated) is on the warm side of neutral and, overall, the system is quite forgiving.  It keeps me from getting a tube cd player and tube amp for my main system and drowning in syrup.     So, the strategy for the main system is a few small changes at a time.... a DeZoral here, a few isolation footers there.....  

[seppstefano]

Hi there   ,
recently I did some blind A-B comparison between two exact copies of a CD with both voices and instruments. One had been painted with a water-based opaque pen on the external border and a common anti-static spray on both sides.
My wife could hear differences (somewhere I read that women hear better than men, and age harms their ears less, too...   )
IMHO, darkening of border gave slightly more basses.
Antistatic spray added more ambience and highs.

I'm painting and cleaning all of my discs... a hard work...  

About hardware, I exchanged the power cord of my CD with a larger, shielded one and the sound improved considerably. So, again, PSU and related are the basis for anything else.

I'm actually using a creek obh-14 DAC, it needs a 24v DC, regulated. Indeed I have a creek small PSU, 24 v unregulated. Do you think this might be a problem? Where can i find a good project for a PSU with 24V and something like 1 - 2 A ( I guess that by strengthening the PSU, I can have deeper sound)...

Ciao,
Stefano