PMC Ob1's vs VSA VR5 HSR

audioligist · « **on:** 17 Jun 2009, 11:40 pm »

I will be doing an a/b of these soon, what should i be listening for? these vr5's are suppose to be upgraded to hse's. how can i be sure?
thank you schweikert experts

audioligist · « **Reply #1 on:** 17 Jun 2009, 11:41 pm »

HSE's not HSR (typo)

Levi · « **Reply #2 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 12:30 am »

It will trounce the OB1. It's not even an i-series. In addition, they are not in the same price point, however it should be fun! I would probably match the VR5 HSR against the PMC MBX2DBi or the EB1i. The EB1i has the same midrange and Solonex tweeter as the OB1i but goes down to 18Hz and goes lots louder.

The PMC OB1i playback levels are from low to moderate volume levels. I would probably listen to Tori Amos or anything that rocks!

What amps are you intend to use?

audioligist · « **Reply #3 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 02:06 am »

moon p3/w3 amp and pre
same price point the vsa are used and older, ob1 have proven to be more please for me than bw 803 and paradigm s8's w same power set up. i no little about vsa except i autioned the moon with them and were out of the price point at that time, but now with a used set that seem unblemished i'm ready to look serious.
what about this supposed upgrade to hse how can i tell?
also these speaker are not with the separate cabs all speakers in the same cab

JackD201 · « **Reply #4 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 04:41 am »

Hi Audioligist,

The VR-5 HSEs are a bit before my time with VSA as they predate even the VR-4 Gen III HSE that was my starting point. I've listened to them on only two occasions and neither was in my own system. HSE is short for Hovland Special Edition. The upgrades are in the crossover network. If I recall correctly very few non Hovland VR-5s made it out into the market and that in all likelihood, the pair you are contemplating is a real HSE. While the VR-5 has good sensitivity, it still shines best with a lot of power behind it as does PMC.

How's this for a wild guess of what to expect?

I would expect different perspectives and texture. Both do very good bass, mids and highs so we can skip that. I'd expect the PMCs to have a more intimate presentation. Like being up close to the musicians and close to their intent. With gobs of juice expect the same visceral whopping you'd get from being close to actual musicians too. I'm sure Levi can attest to this as he has lots of juice behind his PMCs. For the VSA expect a somewhat more enveloping presentation. It will be like diving into a cool pool with ambient hall cues coming from all around you. You'd probably feel like you are in the hall except the hall is scaled down to slightly larger than your own room. By contrast image definition with the older generation 5s won't be as clear. This series of 5's were considered polite in its heyday compared to the metal tweetered B&W Matrix' and the soft domed Dynaudio Contours of the day. With the PMCs, visualization will be a snap. PMCs are champs in this regard and will hold it's own against any speaker make I can think of. That's the reason they are very popular in the pro side of audio as well. What the VR family does that so many of us are addicted too is generate and project the recorded harmonics in such a way that the music can be felt on your skin. Hence that enveloping feeling.

Like Levi said, it should be fun! Enjoy!

Jack

es347 · « **Reply #5 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 03:38 pm »

Nicely described Jack. After reading I had the sudden impulse to drop everything and fire up my system.

The "reviewers" at Stereophile and Absolute Sound don't have a thing on you!

JackD201 · « **Reply #6 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 06:01 pm »

Quote from: Levi on 18 Jun 2009, 12:30 am

It will trounce the OB1. It's not even an i-series. In addition, they are not in the same price point, however it should be fun! I would probably match the VR5 HSR against the PMC MBX2DBi or the EB1i. The EB1i has the same midrange and Solonex tweeter as the OB1i but goes down to 18Hz and goes lots louder.

The PMC OB1i playback levels are from low to moderate volume levels. I would probably listen to Tori Amos or anything that rocks!

What amps are you intend to use?

Hi Levi,

I think even the over achieving PB1i would prove a match against the VR-5 HSE and among the current line up of VSAs against the incoming VR-4 jr Anniversary. The incoming Jr has practically the same FR specs as the PB1i, same woofer size, both transmission lined. The diff would be the 6.5" aerogel unit vs. PMC's dome midrange. The new Jr uses an upgraded version of the VR-7 HSE's tweeter. Heck I think the Jr just might bust the 5 HSE's behind. Well I have heard the pre-production prototypes and I really do think they are better, aural memory being so undependable however I might be wrong. Not likely though. The Jrs are a major advance and will push up against the SRs. I've been waiting for these for over a year. I have 2 pairs reserved.

The MB2 XBDi would go nicely against the VR-7 SE in slam but maybe lose out in refinement because of the ribbon supertweeters. The VR-5 Anniversary would be a good match up but I think would lose out in the slam department to the MB2 XBDi's big bad 12" drivers despite the 3dB edge in sensitivity. I guess the MB2 XBDi's a "tweener" between the 5 and 7s, even in price. The EB1i would be interesting to pit against the VR-4 SR Mk.2. The speaker I REALLY would love to pit against the EB1i is the Escalante Fremont. They are similar even in appearance.

Come to think of it PMC and VSA are interesting because they both use TL variants. Most other big players don't go into the 20s. If ever they do, it's in their really pricey models. These two go subterranean even with their smaller offerings.

Jack

Gavin, you mean I guess better than the Stereophile writers?

Levi · « **Reply #7 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 07:03 pm »

Hi Jack,

You are correct. Performance wise probably the PB1i. What is the retail on the VR-5 HSR...$24K? Hence I said it would be the PMC MBX2DBi's? It looks like the PMC has better performance to value ratio.

--Levi

JackD201 · « **Reply #8 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 07:38 pm »

Hi Levi,

A bit of confusion. No worries I get confused myself.

You could probably pick up a VR-5 HSE now for about 4 to 6k. It was a 10k speaker at the time I believe. Cor would know better. He's been a dealer longer than me and dimfer combined. These were made from the late 90s and the last one made in about 2003. Even the VR-4 Gen III HSE trounced it so it fell by the wayside. The VR-5 model designation was resurrected much later on. The double stacked 2009 VR-5 Anniversary however is a totally different animal. That's the 28k variant. A MB2 XBDi at least over here lists for about 44k. The nearest dealer is in KL. How much is the MB2i without the XBD woofer module (single 12" woofer) over in NYC bro?

A used HSE and the OB1i should then be in roughly the same price bracket. PB1i thus would be in the same price range as the VR-4 Jr Anniversary. Both would list at about 8k based on the 4.7k GBP price which excludes VAT.

Here's an HSE. Pic is from the GON. Asking is $6,500 or something like that.

Here's the 28k VR-5 Anniversary (pic borrowed from Dimfer at wiredstate dot com)

The Tweeters plus their Tweeter Caps alone would set one back about 2k from Madisound and VH.

Levi · « **Reply #9 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 07:52 pm »

Thanks for the clarification Jack.

I was referring to the VR-5 Anniversary.

Retail pricing on the MB2i (pr) $20,999 and MB2iXDB (pr) is $41,999.

Here is the current retail pricing for the PMC Consumer line.

Retail Consumer Price Sheet June 2008
1 of 4
June 15, 2008 PMC USA, LLC

RETAIL PRICE LIST FOR CONSUMER SERIES

HIGH-PERFORMANCE SHELF OR STANDMOUNT MONITORS List
DB-1i (Pr.) Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $1,929
DB-1i-C (Ea.) Ctr Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $1,129
TB-2i (Pr.) Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $2,450
TB-2i-C (Ea.) Ctr Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $1,369

HIGH-PERFORMANCE ON-WALL MONITORS
Wafer 1 (Ea.) Black/White/Silver $1,349
Wafer 2 (Ea.) Black/White/Silver $1,979

HIGH-PERFORMANCE IN-WALL MONITORS
Wafer 1 (Ea.) White $1,549
Wafer 2 (Ea.) White $2,199

FLOOR STANDING WIRELESS SPEAKERS
Free FS (Pr.) White/Black $6999
Retail Consumer Price Sheet June 2008.doc

HIGH-PERFORMANCE FLOOR STANDING SPEAKERS List
GB-1i (Pr.) Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $3,119
(Use DB-1i-C Center Channel)
FB-1i (Pr.) Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $4,599
(Use TB-2i-C Center Channel)
OB-1i (Pr.) Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $7,499
CB-6i Center (Ea.) Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $3,999
EB-1i (Pr.) Cherry/Walnut $15,229

REFERENCE LEVEL THREE-WAY STAND MOUNT SPEAKERS
IB2i (Pr.) Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $17,999
IB2i-C (Ea.) Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $8,999
MB2i (Pr.) Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $20,999
MB2i-C (Ea.) Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $10,799
MB2i-XBD (Pr.) Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $41,999
BB5i-P (Pr.) Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $32,499
BB5i-P-C (Ea.) Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $16,499

ACTIVE SUBWOOFER
TLE1i Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $4,099
Retail Consumer Price Sheet June 2008.doc

PASSIVE SUBWOOFERS List
SB-100 Neo Black Finish $3,049
(requires external amp/crossover network)
XB2-A Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $8,199
(requires external amp/crossover network)
XB3-A Black Ash/Cherry/Walnut $12,499
(requires external amp/crossover network)

Levi · « **Reply #10 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 08:00 pm »

Ok having posted all the pricing structure. I am now even more confused.

In any event, let us know the comparison.

es347 · « **Reply #11 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 09:56 pm »

Quote from: JackD201 on 18 Jun 2009, 07:38 pm

Hi Levi,

A bit of confusion. No worries I get confused myself.

You could probably pick up a VR-5 HSE now for about 4 to 6k. It was a 10k speaker at the time I believe. Cor would know better. He's been a dealer longer than me and dimfer combined. These were made from the late 90s and the last one made in about 2003. Even the VR-4 Gen III HSE trounced it so it fell by the wayside. The VR-5 model designation was resurrected much later on. The double stacked 2009 VR-5 Anniversary however is a totally different animal. That's the 28k variant. A MB2 XBDi at least over here lists for about 44k. The nearest dealer is in KL. How much is the MB2i without the XBD woofer module (single 12" woofer) over in NYC bro?

A used HSE and the OB1i should then be in roughly the same price bracket. PB1i thus would be in the same price range as the VR-4 Jr Anniversary. Both would list at about 8k based on the 4.7k GBP price which excludes VAT.

Here's an HSE. Pic is from the GON. Asking is $6,500 or something like that.

Here's the 28k VR-5 Anniversary (pic borrowed from Dimfer at wiredstate dot com)

The Tweeters plus their Tweeter Caps alone would set one back about 2k from Madisound and VH.

Nice room Jack. Is that one of your customers?

JackD201 · « **Reply #12 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 10:01 pm »

That's Dimfer's set up. Dimfer is the Canadian Distributor of VSA, Lamm, CMS, Nova Physic and TrodT

He, Levi and I are friends from another forum

Levi · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 10:29 pm »

Quote from: JackD201 on 18 Jun 2009, 10:01 pm

That's Dimfer's set up. Dimfer is the Canadian Distributor of VSA, Lamm, CMS, Nova Physic and TrodT

He, Levi and I are friends from another forum

es347 · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 11:17 pm »

He got the speakers right

but I question his choice in amplification

audioligist · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 Jun 2009, 11:23 pm »

wow you guys are info - maniacs.

i like the descriptions and reviews (i haven't even made my case for dynaudio yet. that is the only other contender i feel worthy)
sim and dyn match up very nicely.
how difficult is vsa placement, i've read where people say they can be very fussy.

es347 · « **Reply #16 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 01:01 am »

My experience has been that the placement of VR4s and 5s is no trickier than that of any other speaker. Once you get them in the best spot for bass optimization, you play with the toe in and that's about it. My room, however, is not much of a challenge regarding speaker placement.

audioligist · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 09:30 pm »

what about the ambient adjustment? is this a matter of personal taste or a critical element?

McTwins · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 Jun 2009, 02:39 am »

For me, It's critical. But it depends how the room looks like. I have notice in my room I have to have my ambiance all the way up (100%) beacase I have a large room.

es347 · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 Jun 2009, 03:42 pm »

Quote from: audioligist on 19 Jun 2009, 09:30 pm

what about the ambient adjustment? is this a matter of personal taste or a critical element?

Since it's rear-firing, it depends on the finish of your front wall. Mine is drywall with no acoustic deadening so I don't have to turn it up much at all.