Recommended speakers for classical music

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #40 on:** 2 Jul 2009, 11:21 pm »

The most compelling presentation of recorded classical music that I have ever enjoyed was from a pair of Audio Note (UK) AN-E/SPe HE. I'm saving up for the "signature" version of that speaker.

It will take me at least another year to save that much dough . . . . .

Paul_Bui · « **Reply #41 on:** 3 Jul 2009, 02:56 am »

Quote from: Browntrout on 28 Jun 2009, 07:09 pm

Hello Paul_Bui, I just had a quick search for your gear on the net and see that you are using little chip amps, I would like to suggest you ask to borrow your friends integrated valve amp for a weekend and try it in your setup. I'm thinking that it is your chip amps that are the cause of the problem, in that they will, I reckon, struggle with large music like full orchestra. I think these are the weak point in your system not your speakers, at a guess. Cheers, Ben.

Hi Ben,

I wish that's the case. The chip amp I am using is a highly regarded gainclone that compares favorably with Kimura's Gaincard amp. In addition, it's driven by a SinglePower' maxxed out MPX3. Nevertheless, it's a good idea to try my friend's tube amp on the speakers.

Thanks for your inputs Ben. I'll keep you posted.

Happy July 4th!
Paul

Zheeeem · « **Reply #42 on:** 7 Jul 2009, 04:41 pm »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 17 Jun 2009, 12:35 am

I haven't heard the ones in the picture either, but whether or not someone will want to supplement the bottom end will depend on room placement and personal taste.

But for classical music, symphony and large orchestra, even without supplementary bass Magnepans have no equal. The smallest Magnepan has the equivalent 72 one-inch dome tweeters and 9 eight-inch woofers! Conventional speakers simply cannot convey the same realism of the bigger maggies when it comes to large scale music.

I have over 300 classical discs that I rarely listen to. If I had maggies, that would probably change. In fact there was only one time I was impressed listening to a recording of classical music. That was through a 6' tall pair of maggies many years ago.

This is wierd. Even the top of the line maggies (the 20.1) don't reach 20 Hz. So they will always have a weakness in attempting to play symphonic music. Personally, I think maggies are highly compromised speakers and, with the possible exception of the MMG, there are many better speakers for classical in the various product line price ranges. With enough amplification, they can be OK for rock, where accuracy is less important.

Don't confuse the surface area of a planar-magnetic speaker with the surface area of a cone speaker. Everything, especially the engine, is different. This explains why you actually get more bass from a properly executed 8" cone woofer than you do from at entire MMG.

konut · « **Reply #43 on:** 7 Jul 2009, 08:20 pm »

I owned the Tympany 1-Ds for 15 years

I do not know how they compare to todays Maggies, but I do know that the 1-Ds needed 2KW of bi-amped power before the bass came alive. At that power level, reproduction of drums and tympany(!) was more realistic than any speaker I've owned, or heard, before or since. I'm just sayin'.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #44 on:** 7 Jul 2009, 11:15 pm »

Quote from: Zheeeem on 7 Jul 2009, 04:41 pm

This is wierd. Even the top of the line maggies (the 20.1) don't reach 20 Hz. So they will always have a weakness in attempting to play symphonic music.

Every speaker is a compromise in some way or another. I don't think bass extension beyond 35Hz is a big deal, especially for classical music. In my first post I was simply in agreement someone who said, "You really need big speakers."

The truth is there's nothing like big speakers when it comes to classical. A huge orchestra just doesn't sound or feel like a huge orchestra with 99.9% conventional speakers. Apart from the taller Maggies, I haven't heard another speaker that can present such a convincing huge life like soundstage.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #45 on:** 7 Jul 2009, 11:24 pm »

Konut,

I heard the 1-Ds on a few occasions. If properly set up in a big enough room, with the right amplification and enough power, they are quite the experience. They are definitely one of the most demanding and more challenging speakers to get set up right, but when everything comes together, they are in a class all by themselves.

konut · « **Reply #46 on:** 8 Jul 2009, 12:54 am »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 7 Jul 2009, 11:24 pm

Konut,

They are definitely one of the most demanding and more challenging speakers to get set up right, but when everything comes together, they are in a class all by themselves.

This should have been the warning to me, by the dealer, before I purchased them. While I enjoyed my time with them, the ultimate challenge with them was the combination of room and placement to get anything resembling a coherent sound stage. Anything other than the exact perfect acoustic environment and room logistics, while resulting in an enthralling experience, yielded an unrealistic presentation. If one can dedicate a specific room and commit to large amps, Maggies might be a viable option for ANY genre of music..

Zheeeem · « **Reply #47 on:** 9 Jul 2009, 02:35 pm »

Quote from: konut on 7 Jul 2009, 08:20 pm

I owned the Tympany 1-Ds for 15 years

I do not know how they compare to todays Maggies, but I do know that the 1-Ds needed 2KW of bi-amped power before the bass came alive. At that power level, reproduction of drums and tympany(!) was more realistic than any speaker I've owned, or heard, before or since. I'm just sayin'.

I have owned a pair of 1-Us now for 35 years or so, powered with as much as 750 WPC, biamped. Even properly set-up, they are at best mediocre for classical.

Zheeeem · « **Reply #48 on:** 9 Jul 2009, 02:42 pm »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 7 Jul 2009, 11:15 pm

I don't think bass extension beyond 35Hz is a big deal, especially for classical music.

I have rarely heard a statement that I consider to be more wrong.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #49 on:** 9 Jul 2009, 02:52 pm »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 7 Jul 2009, 11:15 pm

Every speaker is a compromise in some way or another. I don't think bass extension beyond 35Hz is a big deal, especially for classical music. In my first post I was simply in agreement someone who said, "You really need big speakers."

The truth is there's nothing like big speakers when it comes to classical. A huge orchestra just doesn't sound or feel like a huge orchestra with 99.9% conventional speakers. Apart from the taller Maggies, I haven't heard another speaker that can present such a convincing huge life like soundstage.

I happen to agree with it, Zheem...especially in context to Wind Chaser's entire post.

If you look at frequency plots of various instruments, aside from massive organs, there is very little below 30hz. So, you're missing quite little for an investment of quite a lot to gain the lowest octave of bass right.

Big speakers (tall, wide, lotsa' drivers or large radiating area) get the 'majesty' and grandness of classical/orchestral right...but the deepest bass isn't critical to (at least, my and Wind Chaser's) enjoyment.

Fortunately, large speakers generally carry with them the ability to do deep bass..so it's all very tidy in all.

John

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #50 on:** 12 Jul 2009, 08:22 am »

That's from here......

JackD201 · « **Reply #51 on:** 12 Jul 2009, 10:15 am »

I wonder why they left out the percussion section?

I can live without organs (except Poulanc maybe

)but not without Timpanis.

In my experience there's a big difference between simply getting down to the low 40s and actually filling the room with enough of AND with proper spread for it to feel real. For classical music I just have to feel it. Listening live is a very tactile experience. So for me, a whole lot of moving air is really a requirement to get the most out of classical software. Too bad I'm hooked on classical. I could have saved a lot of dough had I not been.

No other genre in my opinion is as demanding.

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #52 on:** 12 Jul 2009, 11:24 am »

Quote from: Paul_Bui on 28 Jun 2009, 05:42 pm

Second, instrument details were clearer on the B&W.
My friend, while noticing the less detailed instruments

Paul if you want more "clarity" like your friend's system there are several things that can be done in your system:

1-add high frequency drivers, be it horn loaded Fostex tweeters or even planar ones.

2-might be related with the battery powered gear that for what I keep reading have less "bite" and depth than regular powered sources/equipment. I cannot remember the DAC you have but if it is a NOS one, most of them give you an image that is more profuse and not specific unlike some highly OS type of DACs. Remember that the CDP that your friend is using is more traditional, the OS type.

3-I respectfully disagree with the suggestion that it is a tube amp variable that makes the images of what you heard sharper or something.

4-B&W speakers are known to have a more aggressive sound in comparison to other speaker of the same type and maybe the difference is even more pronounced with the FTAs.

5-Every speaker and set up is different. An attempt at arriving at a certain satisfactory sound is something of a crap shot especially when there are so many variables at play.

SD speakers might be stereotypically described as lacking in extremes, with midbass humps and unable to do music with massive amount of instrumentation but then perhaps people have not heard your SD speakers, which sound different than most speakers in general.

Someone whp came to listen to my FTAs went to listen to another set up with some 18" coaxial Alnico magnet Tannoys that cost around 15K and said that the Tannoys were clearly better that did things better...then I thought to myself, hum, I paid around 1.5K for my speakers and the amplification etc... that I have it paired with was quite affordable which led to me to one conclusion, people do not really take into consideration what they perhaps can afford and have vs with what they wish they could have and hear.

Most audiophiles expect a sound that would be satisfactory in their dreams, without taking into account the impossibility of making it true. Or perhaps it is the nature of audiophilia, as people seek Shangri la or something...See all the extra $$$$$$ gear that is available in Audiogon all the time, those are the people that one ought to avoid becoming one.

For what I can see you have made great choices in equipment and have not gotten into the equipment swapping orgy that some are into.

I say enjoy your system as it sound fine to me, from what I can hear.

From another Paul in NYC

JohnR · « **Reply #53 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 10:50 am »

Hi - it's a bit misleading to think of frequency content only in terms of the fundamental frequency of instrumental notes. That is a steady-state signal, which is not what most instruments generate when playing music. To take the extreme counter-example, the frequency content of an (infinitesimal duration) impulse is a uniform spectrum from zero to infinity (that is what the math says). Real-world signals clearly are neither infinitesimally short or infinite in bandwidth, but the principle remains that transient signals have significantly greater bandwidth than indicated by the corresponding steady-state frequency spectrum. Bear in mind also that (acoustic) recordings may contain information that was not generated by instrumental notes.

JohnR

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #54 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 03:23 pm »

In all seriousness, fairness, and sincere curiosity, why does classical music require a special type of speaker?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #55 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 03:59 pm »

QE,

It doesn't require a 'special' speaker...it requires a very good one and, most often, a fairly large one.

Having 'discovered' classical only the last ~5 years or so after a lifetime of breezier genres...I can attest to the need for the best you can afford to maximize it's enjoyment.

That often means, a larger speaker (which given my listening space, I cannot give it full justice - but I use a 6.5" 'two' way Lineaum with a Gallo subwoofer and it sounds great...much like you found with the AudioNote speakers)

John

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #56 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 04:24 pm »

My own opinion (at the moment) is that I have different expectations when I listen to classical music. Or lack of expectation to be more specific. I personally do not "expect" to be wowed by hi-fi, audiophile fun when I listen to classical music. I'm not sure why though. I do enjoy the hi-fi fun stuff when I listen to pop, jazz, and other mixed genres of music. Even though I expect an honest musical presentation as a baseline.

Music is music, and instruments make sound. If you need bigger speakers for classical, then you would need the same for pop, electric jazz, and many other genres. You're listening to a recording, and that recording is not the same as you being there. It is what it is. So your speaker of choice should be able to do it all, within its own limitations of course.

Just my opinion at this time. Confused and curious as always.

JackD201 · « **Reply #57 on:** 13 Jul 2009, 04:25 pm »

Strictly speaking I wouldn't say they do. Classical music can be enjoyed with any modest speaker just as any other genre can. When it comes to attempting to recreate what one would hear in a concert hall however with about a hundred musicians and their instruments, the demands are much greater than most any other genre. Not just the speakers but the rest of the chain starting from the source must be resolving and harmonically true lest one section be mistaken for another. Never mind individual instruments except the occasional soloist because in the hall you couldn't pick out instruments with your eyes closed anyway. When aided with sight and correlating what you see with what you hear however one can zoom in on a particular musician to a limited extent.

Musically it is also the most complex in arrangement. The system must be able to deal with wide dynamic swings but more importantly convey the interplay of instruments as most works rely heavily on these to convey their musical meanings. Sections sing to and with each other and when listening live they hit us, the audience, with ripples and waves from differing directions. There's a sense of motion from left, right, front and back that follows the conductor's every movement then followed by a sense of ambience as the notes gradually die out. It just isn't easy to do and remains undone by even the most ambitious audio engineers. Sound reproduction in my mind is like special effects in a movie. I seriously doubt CGI will ever develop a truly convincing human actor. I also seriously doubt a home system can also ever truly recreate the experience of a full orchestra in the home. Still it doesn't stop many of us from trying to attain sustained periods of suspended disbelief.

In general then, at least in my own experience, speakers or systems that excel at portraying classical music also do well with any other genre. The caveat is that these systems are normally much less forgiving of music that has been recorded with heavy compression. A reason I listen to classic rock off original LP pressings from the 60s and 70s instead of their modern digital reissues.

I hope I haven't come across as didactic in any way. It's just that when it comes to audio, classical music is what I'm most passionate about.

Cheers!

Browntrout · « **Reply #58 on:** 14 Jul 2009, 07:01 pm »

Good comments, from all. I think the test of any good component is that it does not 'prefer' one type of music over another but prefers the better recordings regardless of genre.
I sometimes look at it as a window into the event, perhaps bigger/better speakers enlarge the window and bring the pane up close so the frame is only visible in the corners of our eyes.

JLM · « **Reply #59 on:** 14 Jul 2009, 07:03 pm »

Large ensembles (orchestrial, symphonic, or large choral music for example) presents unique miking/mixing challenges. As Jack posted, it is nearly impossible to hear individual performers when they number in the dozens/hundreds, so detail and imaging becomes secondary to tone and dynamics. Typically mikes are located above the ensemble, which "thins out" the bass reinforcement that the floor provides and accentuates the violins versus what is heard from the main seating area.

I agree that audiophiles often have unreasonable expectations (like fully reproducing with high fidelity any large ensemble performing in a large hall) in an average sized room at home.

The laws of physics (as I understand them) dictate that small speakers will have a most difficult time reproducing the dynamics of large ensembles. Obviously some cabinet designs are better suited than others in addressing the most tasking of challenges, foundational bass.

IMO the "hi-fi" sound of most commercial offerings, like B&W, provide a "ear candy" sort of exagerated presentation that can quickly grow old. Not to get into the single driver versus multiple driver debate, but I agree with Paul, at their price point the FTA-2000 speakers have a lot going for them. It would take a significant investment in amps, active crossovers, and speakers before hearing much of an overall improvement.