[Davidjim]

Hi All,

Popping my first post cherry here, and I am wondering if anyone can help. I do not claim to be an audiophile or have extensive knowledge of audio set-ups, but am reasonably well versed in computers.

I am currently writing orchestral music on my computer (Creative Audigy 2 soundcard, ASIO driver and 24/96 sample rate).

The problem I have is that the music I write sounds good through the PC (Sony 2.1 speakers) but when played back on a Hifi (Techniks seperates) it sounds like the high frequencies are crushed, & the mid range and bass is amplified, leading to a poor muddy sound quality.

I am not compressing the data and burning it to CD for playback as an uncompressed .wav file so it's not in the coding. Can anyone help me or point me in the right direction as to what is amiss?

I hope someone can as it is very frustrating to mix music so i sounds good on the PC and then take it to play to someone and it sounds like it's being played in a cupboard next door.

Help? Please!

[Wayner]

Are you saving you have MIDI software and are writing music from scratch, playing MIDI defined instruments thru your soundcards wave sampler?

Wayner

[Davidjim]

Hi there,

Yes, I have Garritan Orchestra (sample library) that is being played by Ovature 3.5 notation software via a virtual midi link with a Kontaktplayer2 host. Samples are loaded into the host and the notation software communicates which sample to play and when. You can load up to 64 instuments at any one time

There is an export to .wav function that saves the whole piece when played to .wav file format (I'd prefer .flac but it's not supported) which when the .wav is played back through the PC sounds identical. It's only when that is either burnt to CD or put on USB and played back through a Hi-fi that the mix and fidelity sounds so bad.

It's really frustrating, as I am sure you can appreciate how long it takes to mix 50+ instruments so that it sounds good on PC, only to then sound bad on a hi-fi.

Any thoughts?

[Niteshade]

It sounds like you will have to do some experimenting. Have you done any troubleshooting yet? Do you play the sound card directly into your stereo? How is the computer working? Did it work well at one time and then stop working they way it should?

[Wayner]

Well, at some point your going thru your soundcard's mixer when you export the file, right? So my soundcard has a mixer section that has bass and treble controls and also controls volume, along with other sources like CD player, etc. Not knowing your software, I'll assume that you record your MIDI tracks to 2 stereo tracks (internally) and that is where your trouble is coming from. While you are composing your music and playing it back, you are listening to your sound card's built in synthesizer, unless you are exporting to an external synth, and those sounds need to be put down as "audio tracks" on your software. Then you export the file to .wav file (checking output levels, bass, treble and so on) before doing so.

After you have the internal .wav file made, then you can rip it to the CD burner, never doing this process direct. That is the way it works on my Cakewalk Pro Audio 9, anyway.

Come back.

Wayner

[richidoo]

I assume that other CDs played on your stereo sound fine. Verify that the burnt CD of your music sounds good when played on the PC, or another player beside the technics stereo.

Are you applying EQ to the tracks to make them sound good on the PC which is then not needed on the stereo? Make a wave of cello or trombone with no EQ to burn to CD and play on stereo.

[Davidjim]

Firstly, Thanks every one for the great response!

Niteshade - The computer is working fine  & I don't have the soundcard running directly to my stereo (different rooms). Since I started writing (I had no reason to notice any difference before as PC is in the study and Hifi in the living room) the sound has always sounded great on the PC but dreadful on my stereo, but I will run a digital out (SPDIF Passthough - undecoded) to my surround sound amp and see what that that sounds like (gonna need a longer lead methinks!!). it's the exporting issue I really want to crack as I want to be able to send the music to people and be confident they hear something at least akin to what I hear! right now it's just roobarb.

Richidoo - The burnt CD sounds great on my PC, exactly as the music does when it's being played through the notation-midiplayer software. But muddy on the Hifi. I have tried burning a "dry" mix of instuments (ie no convolution reverb) but the crushing of the sound is similar.

Wayner -  Sorry external synth? Like physically a different box from the PC? All my software and music is on the one PC box - Interestingly, to see if is a midi software issue I have tried to record some music using "Audacity" (free music prog - Just me and my trusty guitar playing some Einaudi plugged in though a line in port) and have a very similar result that I can mix it on the computer (very simple wet/dry reverb mix) so it sounds good but rubbish when played back though a stereo - same crushing of the audio. I guess you have written music in cakewalk that sounds near identical when played on Hifi? Oh for that holy grail right now! 

further general info

I have tried putting the wav file on usb key and playing that though my stereo to see if it's the cd process, but I still get the same effect of crushed treble and boosted midrange/bass. So I figure it's not a cd burning issue

I am beginning to think that this is maybe an equalization problem as suggested but I already have all the various gadgets (CMSS / EAX / etc) off and the bass / treble on the soundcard set set at default 50%.

Any thoughts? Perhaps this will just be a case of messing with the PC eq until it sounds good on a Hifi? I really hope not as it would seem a bit of a bodge-job fix rather than actually finding the cause of the problem.

Thanks so far everyone!

[Wayner]

Yep. In my home studio, I had 4 external synthesizers. You would use the gaming jack to run MIDI in and out. It was quite the system. Of course you'd have to set each synth to listen to the channels that you'd want them to respond to. As an example, one would work on channels 0-4, the other 5-9, the drum synth would be on channel 10, another synth on 11-16. All you had to do is hit the play button, and it would be like an entire orchestra. Actually, I think I was one of the first to have a home based studio, recording both MIDI and analog on hard-disc drive. I'll post some pictures of the studio tomorrow. Of course, having external synths required 2 mixing boards. One for inputs, the other for outputs. I also had a bank of effect devices like reverb, DBX limiter/gate/compressor and junk like that.

I have accumulated 10 years worth of original music starting from 1994 to 2004, making 11 CDs in all. Thousands of hours of work into about 120 instrumental tunes with synths, acoustic guitar, mandolin, electric guitar and what ever else I could muster  up, including secada bugs!

Good time tho.

Wayner

[richidoo]

Please confirm that commercial CDs sound fine on the stereo?  If possible, try to find a third system on which to play the Audio CD-R, maybe the car or boombox.

Be sure that your Windows integrated Sound card is disabled and that you are not using the Windows mixer in anyway.

Try connecting the stereo directly to the PC as source, using sound card's analog output direct to the Technics preamp input instead of the Sony powered monitors. That should give you some important info about the cause.

When you render your composition to WAV in Garriton software, there are a lot of settings to control the sound quality of the file created. Be sure you have those settings correct.  Be sure that you don't have a software filter on the master output channels. You could be monitoring a different output than that which is being rendered to redbook.  It took me a while to figure out how to render correctly in Sonar.

[Davidjim]

Hi all,

Wow wayner that sounds like one hell of a set-up. Do post some pics. So do you think this is an equalization issue?

richidoo, Yes the cd sounds duff on everything (Hifi - home, car, parents) except my mate's computer - another Dell! Still sounds awful on everything else, and strangely even my parents Compaq PC!

I have disabled the on-bpard soundcard at the bios and will try again this evening.

Any other thoughts?

[Davidjim]

oh and sorry I forgot to answer - richidoo, commercial CDs sounds fine in the stereo.

[Wayner]

Can you describe how you get your MIDI mixed down into a .wav file?

Wayner

[Davidjim]

Hi Wayner,

There was button that says "export to .wav" on the Garritan Studio host software (hosts 8 Kontaktplayer1's), but this has since disappeared when I upgraded to the Kontaktplayer2 host (don't need Garritan Studio anymore as the KP2 hosts the 8x8 midi channels).

So since the upgrade I have been using audacity to pick up a "what you hear" from the soundcard and then export in a wav format. I have had the same problem with both ways, (identical sound crushing on the stereo) both before and after upgrading.

I think more and more this must be an EQ problem..?

[Davidjim]

anyone?

[lonewolfny42]

You might post your question in this forum.. for more results.....

[Davidjim]

Thanks Lonewolfny42 I'll try that one too.

[Wayner]

Well, until you make a .wav file, your listening to the MIDI. That soundcard music has to be recorded as a .wav file before it can be put onto a CD. Of course a CD doesn't put .wav files down either, but the recording software for making a CD playable file will change it.

There are also volume control issues here that I haven't seen addressed. You can't just dump MIDI down into a .wav file and the volume control must be regulated. This is in the area where I think you are having trouble. You've somehow overmodulated the music from the MIDI and have terrible digital music that is filled with red-line distortion. Like recording with a DAT (if you've ever done that) it doesn't like going into the red at all.

Wayner