[oz_audio_todd]

Hey Danny,
Some time ago I read somewhere that for a system, you want to throw 50% of your budget at the speakers, 10% at your cables and the rest into everything else. Then I read somewhere else that its possibly more like 90% at your speakers and 10% at the rest. Then, there are room treatments of course, that I havent heard mentioned in those equations.
I was hoping that you might induge me (us), (as you sell, indorse and praise a lot of different equipment) by telling us how you might spend say:
$1000
$2000
$4000
$8000
more(?)
on a stereo system, for an average lounge/Listening room?
If you have specific products you want to recomend, then please do, else just an indication  of the $ value for that aspect of the equation would be great.

I am just curious how you value the speakers/speaker upgrades, the cables (speaker, power, IC), the majic bus, the sub/s, DAC's, amps etc when looking at a set up.

I realise this is a really big ask and very anoying, but I cant be the only person on this forum that cant afford to try every new concept and product that comes out and would like to know where best to look at spending my cash?

Thanks,
Todd
Sydney Australia

[Meataxe]

That in US$ or Aus$ Todd, so I can get a clue on our Pacifc Pesos!

I would guess it would change per region, Aus have SKA, VAF etc., NZ has Plinius, Image etc. US has a huge local selection( ).

With the value of GR I would suggest slightly less than 90% on speakers!

Hard to equate with us and the exchange rates

Look forward to more discussion.


Meataxe.

[nrenter]

...throw 50% of your budget at the speakers, 10% at your cables and the rest into everything else.

Personally, I think this ratio is silly, and is probably only appropriate if you're looking to upgrade (in the near future) all the stuff you've purchased with that 40% of your budget - which potentially includes:

 - CD Player
 - Pre-Amp
 - Amp
 - Phono Pre-Amp
 - Turntable
 - Tonearm
 - Cartridge
 - Analog Cleaning Supplies
 - Room treatments
 - Subs
 - Speaker Stands
 - Power Conditioning
 - etc.

Are you starting to see why that ratio is silly (to anyone other than someone trying to sell you a pair of speakers - and perhaps cables)? IMHO, you need to think about your listening environment as a "system" and include physical space as part of your system. Budget ratios do not lead to long-term satisfaction. And price does not equate to quality.

[corndog71]

I don't believe in spending ratios and percentages.

Find what you like and buy it.  And don't be afraid to take a chance on something unheard.  Just do your homework first.

[Danny Richie]

I'd start with what your limitations are. Mainly room size and budget.

Think about what type of speaker the room will support, and what your flexibility is in the use of room treatments.

Then what is your budget? One mans bang for the buck is not the same as the next guys.

I think the Dodd Audio battery powered tub pre-amp is one of the best values in all of audio. It competes with and beats up on the cost no object pre-amps out there and does so for a really reasonable price. I think you can order a brand new one from Dodd Audio for $2,695. But for some people that is a crazy amount of money to spend on a pre-amp.

Once you have determined your budget, then build the system around the speakers that you choose.

If the room, room acoustics, and speakers are bad and not working together, then it won't matter how good anything else is or what it cost.

So start with the basics.

[Daygloworange]

The most important element in the chain is the one directly responsible for moving air.

In the playback chain, that would be the loudspeakers. Period.

In the recording chain, it would be the instrument. Period.

If you have a killer mic, a killer pre-amp, a killer recorder and are recording a SHITTY drum kit in a killer room. You will have a killer recording of a SHITTY drum kit.

If you have a KILLER drum kit, and record it with a decent mic, plugged into a decent pre-amp, and recorded on a decent recorder, in a decent room, you will have a decent recording of KILLER drums.

It's what's directly responsible for moving the air that is paramount.

I have owned/or had in my system, everything from 3" full range single driver speakers, to 2 way speakers, to 3 way speakers, all the way to monster line arrays.

Speakers are like instruments. Period.

Speakers are number 1. Room treatments are number 2 (and can be done quite inexpensively by the DIY). The front end source is number 3 ( the power supply section here being critical), and good amplification is number 4. Cables, IC's and power cords come after 1-4.

[cujobob]

I completely agree with what's been said, except I think room treatments are first priority in really bad rooms.  I've heard some incredible speakers sound pathetic because of this.

[satfrat]

Guess I'm oe of the few who feels an audio system is like a house which is only as good as it's fountation. Any system's foundation is it's power. The cleaner the power, the better all components will operate. I say start with the foundation, especially if using budget components that use pricepoint power supplys. The cleaner the power to these components, the more music you'll hear from them. As power conditioning prices go, cheap usually goes along with limited effectiveness. Even tho I've only had the Majik Buss for 1 day, being demo'ed in front of a 2400 watt BPT balanced power conditioner, I can freely say it's well worth the $595 price tag. This conditioner works well on both audio & video. As Danny has already alluded to, the Majik Buss inline with a balanced power conditioner makes for a killer ground noise reducing, music enhancing setup,,, at least in both his system and in mine.

Cheers,
Robin

[woofersus]

I think it's important to keep the entire system in mind when deciding where to allocate money.  As Danny mentioned, everybody has a different set of circumstances, from room size to budget to musical preferences, and it depends on those things what gear will work the best.  He thinks at $2700 preamp is one of the best deals in audio, but if you're spending $4k on a system, then it would clearly be silly to buy that preamp and leave only $1300 for speakers, amps, pres, dacs, source, etc.  The Majik Bus may be a great in power conditioning, but if the rest of your system won't reveal the difference then it's wasted money.

I tend to find that, up to a certain price point anyway, speakers yield the most improvement per dollar, but after a certain price level you start to get tangible benefits from things like power conditioning, better DAC's, Pre-amps, etc.

I currently have RS450's, ELT525T's, an RSC100Mkii, an mfw-15, and a yamaha receiver.  I still believe that I'll yield the best bang for my buck by upgrading the front speakers and center with N3/servo sub combos and an N3 center.  At that point it's probably time to think about replacing the receiver with separates.  I've not yet heard a majik bus so I can't say if my current system would get $600 worth of benefit from it.  If I had $600 to potentially buy one I'd give it a try and see.  In the end, though, it's not about whether it helps or not, it's about whether it helps more than $600 spent elsewhere will help.

Back to the original question, I can't really give a percentage out, but I could say that at a $2k budget, the vast majority would be spent on speakers and the front end would be kept as simple as possible, as you'd never be able to be able to realize the benefit of the other gear.  At the $8k mark you're probably getting a lot closer to 50-50 and you'd be doing things like separates and power conditioning.

note that I'm assuming an HT setup here, not 2-channel.  That would change costs of speakers significantly.  You might not even have a sub.

[Danny Richie]

One thing on the Majik Buss...

The cheaper the gear the greater the difference for the most part. The cheapest budget gear does nothing internally to filter out noise on the AC line.

Some of the bigger buck gear may have some AC noise filtering built in.

[oz_audio_todd]

Oh man, this is all too hard  : (
Meataxe, surely whether your spending Oz or US dollars, the ratios should be about the same? And I dont know, I would love to hear a set of OB-7's and a Servo sub driven off the cheapest CD receiver I could get my hands on! (Just for the sake of the exercise anyway) In fact, it might be a great way to spend $3000?
Hehe, Corndog, what I like I cant afford!      
Dayglow, thanks for that, I guess at the end of the day, the cables are the easiest/cheapest bits to improve later
Dam, room treatments are the bits I know least about (actually basically nothing! )
Yeah, I did want to ask the Q including Stereo vs HT, but thought that would just confuse the issue further.
It seems I need to start with big speakers    and build from there (Dam, I need more money!)
Thanks for the responses

[corndog71]

I hear you!

There's a lot of gear I want and can't afford or can afford but can't fit into my dinky apartment.

Seems like a no-win situation sometimes. 

I've finally found my speakers (for now) as well as associated electronics that I can live with.  Took me years of starting cheap and eventually moving up in quality.

Over the last year I discovered AV123 and Danny's kits and I feel like I've found the holy grail!  You'd be hard-pressed to find better speakers out there for the money.  Especially if you build them yourself. 

I will concede that speakers are probably the most important if you want to break it down.  You can always find decent electronics used for reasonable prices.  DIY kits like Bottlehead gear can save a lot of money but watch out.  That tube gear can be addicting!

A little patience can go a long way towards sonic nirvana.  The best thing you can do is keep reading and learning and if you have to get it one piece at a time then so be it.  The journey is half the fun.

[Daygloworange]

Oh man, this is all too hard  : (
 

Oz, it's not hard at all. Seriously.

I'll save you some time..... Ask someone who's experience is as vast in as many areas that have been pointed out, as possible.

The beauty is, here on AudioCircle, you have it all.

You want to learn about room acoustics? Go look in the Acoustics Circle. AC has some of the best in the business.
Speakers? Well, you're in the right circle, but there are others as well.
Front end components? Some of the best in the business are here.
Amps? Ditto.
Cables? Ditto.

And vendors here that are as honest as the day is long, with great advice on how best to spend your money, and even greater support when you do.

If you like to read, you can become a seriously well educated audio nut within a short period of time.

And I dont know, I would love to hear a set of OB-7's and a Servo sub driven off the cheapest CD receiver I could get my hands on!

That speaker choice is a great one. I had both the OB-5's and OB-7's for a while, with GR's PR sub. Fantastic combo. I have a pair of the GR servo free air subs here, but haven't had the time to build them out.


However, I will tell you that you cannot be so lax with your source components. At RMAF 2007, Danny was to have a super modded transport from another vendor on loan to drive his system which consisted of his super modded DAC, Dodd battery powered preamp, over the top custom Dodd tube monoblocs that run 130 watts per side in Class A, run on a Dodd power conditioning unit. Cabling was second to none. Room heavily treated. Speakers were LS-6 line arrays.

A world class system.

The modded transport was a no show.

An out of the box budget CD player was offered as a substitute and used as a transport only.

The sound? You could just about do better with a $500.00 Best Buy home theater in a box setup. Ok, maybe not better, but not much worse.

Luckily, a local friend of Danny's saved the day and loaned him an older stable platter CD player. It was placed in as a transport only, and showed all of us how significant a poorly designed component can be.

You cannot be lax on any component. Like an underpowered amp. Sending a clipped signal to a speaker is R E A L L Y bad....

Cheers

[Danny Richie]

Good thing my buddy Steven Norber loaned me a real transport. The difference in the sound of the system just by changing the transport was not subtle.

[2bigears]

  soooo you can't use a cheap Oppo to spin for a good DAC. ok,now i need a good transport.   anyone thinkin' on sellin' .....

[woofersus]

One thing on the Majik Buss...

The cheaper the gear the greater the difference for the most part. The cheapest budget gear does nothing internally to filter out noise on the AC line.

Some of the bigger buck gear may have some AC noise filtering built in.

That's an interesting point, and it makes sense, but that's why a front end should be kept simple with a small budget.  Why add 3 crappy power supplies to the chain?  I would still think you'd need a minimum sufficiency when it comes to speakers to hear the difference. (again, fully admitting I haven't heard what the majik bus or anything costing more than maybe $300 can do to the sound)

[oz_audio_todd]

OK, sorry guys, I am going to jack my own thread (I think that is the right statement anyway?), may be the question was a touch overly ambitious.
New Q:
Lets say I have an average sized room (4m X 5M), lets say its got lots of nice squishy absorbant carpet on the floor, a sofa and some posters of Jessica Alba and Jessica Simpson on the walls. Lets say I have just built me a set of OB-7's and a twin 12" servo sub (hang on, lets just run with that thought for a mo'    ).
For the sake of the exercise, we will say that these cost me about $1500 (which shouldnt be too far off) and lets now assume I have say another $1500 US dollars to run between the speakers and the wall socket.
And I am very aware that everybody will have different ideas and thats part of the fun. But what might the people that have been there/ done that/ bought the t-shirt/ learnt from expirience/ heard way more stuff than I have/ A-B'ed more things than I have seen here in Oz/ torn their hair out already suggest for my cash?
Sorry if i am being a pain, I am just trying to get a gauge of how people value the various choices available.
Thanks Guys

[nrenter]

If I only had $1500 USD to build an entire 2-channel system (minus speakers), I'd buy a used Pioneer SX-1250 or Marantz 2265B / 2275 (then have it rebuilt / recapped), and a Technics SL-1200MK2 turntable w/ Audio-Technica 440MLa Cartridge. If I had any coin left over, I'd buy some cheap-o CD player and perhaps an inexpesive set of interconnect from someone like Signal Cable. That's it, but hey...that's just me.

[corndog71]

$1500 eh?

I would recommend a used Rega Planet and Brio integrated amp along with a PS Audio Duet to help clean up your ac a bit.

Or maybe get the planet with an Outlaw RR2150 Receiver.

[PDR]

It would have to be used.....perhaps a integrated tube amp for around $800

I saw a used Denon 2930ci the other day for $400......for source

That would leave $300 for cables....

It would be pretty skinny lookin.....

The other way would be to get one of Dannys Virtue deals.......and upgrade the speaks to Venues

...........but thats just me.......