Cartridge for Technics 1200 MkII & Thorens TD160 MkI?

launche · « **on:** 29 May 2009, 07:09 pm »

After some reading about the good times vinyl listeners are having I decided to venture into vinyl playback on a small scale. I've been on the fence about this for about a year, concerned about the work required and the amount needed to have a competent vinyl playback system. Hearing that one needs $5k invested to hear the magic of vinyl always kept me on the sideline along with the fact that I know very very little about vinyl playback. I was going to buy one of those really nice belt drives and phono's and jump in fairly high but decided to go less expensive just in case I didn't take to it. So I am learning as I go and going slowly.

I've been trying to read about turntable setup and cartridge alignment and had to take a break as it's really involved and there are many different approaches and techniques etc... I'm still learning the parts of the turntable, cartridge and so on and how they all related to one another. I can easily see why many just don't bother, it seems to be a fair amount of work. I do like playing records and the general sound and so on and want to have it as a form of music playback.

I am looking for an inexpensive cartridge that can be used with both tables. I intend to buy two of them and do some light comparsions and get a better feel for both tables. I don't want something to entry level where I would be eager to move up because it offers little beyond a basic presentation. I don't have a firm price as I realize a relative bargain may arise and encourage me to spend a bit more. But I would say no more than $500 total but the cheaper the better as I see there are also various accessories I need to get as well.

I assume these are both high compliance arms and should be able to handle the same type of cartridge. The Thorens has a new Sumiko Oyster cart on it now but I don't know if this is anything but an entry level cart or how well it synergizes with the Thorens or possibly the Technics. This vinyl system will be for headphone playback for what that's worth, significant I imagine.

Any and all help is appriecated above and beyond just cart suggestions.

Thanks.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #1 on:** 29 May 2009, 07:34 pm »

Hey launche (Tim, is it?)

Define 'inexpensive' for a cartridge and we can all probably help there.

As for tables, do the Technics SL-1200 - you'll lose less than 25% if you sell it back to market and you'll get a good idea of why some of us swoon over vinyl.

I'd highly recommend a record cleaner or regimen that zealously cleans your records...it's that little bit of extra work that vinyl requires that help set it apart from its digital brethren in sonics

John

launche · « **Reply #2 on:** 29 May 2009, 07:50 pm »

Budget would be no more than $500 for both carts but the cheaper the better.

I already have both the Technics 1200 and the Thorens 160 in house.

I am looking into record cleaning options now, an equally in depth endeavor.
I think I am going to buy some fluid and do it via a DIY cleaner method I saw.

Eric

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #3 on:** 29 May 2009, 08:05 pm »

Eric it is - ooops

Heck, only the cartridge makers would want you to think that $250 a cartridge is cheap - it's not - it's 250 smackers for something that is made mostly by automated machine (windings, etc). The cost of materials and packaging don't equal $10 on it...the rest is markup thru the chain from suppliers to assemblers to dealers.

The Denon DL-160, for US$179, is a delight. It tracks well, sounds good and works with any MM stage. I dislike a good many moving coils, but like this one and find it's value irresistable at $179.00. The Denon line has solid values throughout it seems.

Two of those are only $360...which leaves you plenty to wash your records with and buy some albums, too

John

Wayner · « **Reply #4 on:** 29 May 2009, 08:47 pm »

I'm listening to my Technics SL-1200 with an Audio Technica AT440MLa. Great sound for about $130 from LPGEAR.

Wayner

twitch54 · « **Reply #5 on:** 29 May 2009, 09:00 pm »

Eric, another cart that seems popular amongst the "1200" crowd is the Shure M97xe, while only half the price of the Denon and AT. I do think though that both Wayner and John's suggestions will yield better sonics if your budget will allow.

launche · « **Reply #6 on:** 29 May 2009, 09:20 pm »

I think I have seen mention of that Shure or a similiar one as a good match for the Thorens.

Regarding the DL-160 MC, is there any special phono requirements needed to run this cart? Is it harder to setup, maintain etc... vs the MM carts in its price class.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #7 on:** 29 May 2009, 09:51 pm »

Quote from: launche on 29 May 2009, 09:20 pm

Regarding the DL-160 MC, is there any special phono requirements needed to run this cart? Is it harder to setup, maintain etc... vs the MM carts in its price class.

Nuthin' special at all...run it right into a moving magnet (MM) phono and you're good to go

No maintenance issues on any cartridges and the Denon mates pretty well with a wide range of tonearms.

John

Scottdazzle · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 May 2009, 09:57 pm »

Quote from: launche on 29 May 2009, 09:20 pm

I think I have seen mention of that Shure or a similiar one as a good match for the Thorens.

Regarding the DL-160 MC, is there any special phono requirements needed to run this cart? Is it harder to setup, maintain etc... vs the MM carts in its price class.

If you're interested in trying the Denon DL-160 without spending big bucks I have a good one with lots of life left. I just sold my table and arm but held on to the cartridge. I will be stepping up and was just holding on to the Denon as a backup. If you're interested in a great deal send me a pm.

launche · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 May 2009, 10:28 pm »

Quote from: Scotthobby on 29 May 2009, 09:57 pm

Quote from: launche on 29 May 2009, 09:20 pm
I think I have seen mention of that Shure or a similiar one as a good match for the Thorens.

Regarding the DL-160 MC, is there any special phono requirements needed to run this cart? Is it harder to setup, maintain etc... vs the MM carts in its price class.

If you're interested in trying the Denon DL-160 without spending big bucks I have a good one with lots of life left. I just sold my table and arm but held on to the cartridge. I will be stepping up and was just holding on to the Denon as a backup. If you're interested in a great deal send me a pm.

YGM,
Thanks

richidoo · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 May 2009, 01:29 am »

Eric, You can try my M97xe if you want before I sell it. I don't really like it on SL-Q2.

launche · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 May 2009, 03:28 pm »

Thanks Rich,

I let you know PM.

Listens2tubes · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 Jun 2009, 10:46 pm »

Hey Eric have you tried any of the carts mentioned above? Which one/s were keepers?

launche · « **Reply #13 on:** 10 Jul 2009, 04:49 pm »

I tried the Denon DL-160 on the Technics 1200 but sadly I can only hear a very, very faint output. I am using a headphone based system for this listening. Maybe my headamp's gain may not be high enough. But I imagine the issue is with my phono stage, I guess I need something able to drive a MC cart.

lcrim · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 Jul 2009, 05:24 pm »

The Denon ML160 is spec'ed @1.6 mV and should work well w/ a MM phono stage. I would caution against using a phono stage intended for use w/LOMC as all that gain could cause serious problems.
Could you describe the entire playback chain in more detail?
When you used the term "headamp" did you mean "headphone amp" as the two are very different devices.

launche · « **Reply #15 on:** 10 Jul 2009, 06:10 pm »

Yes I meant headphone amp. I will complete the playback chain later when I get home, I can't recall my (older) phono stage off the top of my head.

Source: Technics Sl-1200/Thorens 160
Phonostage: Motif Mp11
Headphone Amp: Audio-GD C-2C
Headphones: Denon AH-D7000

Thanks

Wayner · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 Jul 2009, 06:43 pm »

Larry, the 1.6mv output is a tad low for some MM inputs. Frank (of AVA) may say it's too low. I have done a Sumiko Blue Point Special @ 2.5mv MC and it has worked with Franks equipment, but much less and the output ratio will be low and the noise floor will come up with it.

That is really a weird output voltage anyway, too high for most LOMCs and too low for most HOMCs and MMs. IMHO.

Wayner

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #17 on:** 10 Jul 2009, 07:22 pm »

The 'real' output of the Denon DL-110/160 is 2.2mv.

It's pretty much standard across Denon's line that they under-report the actual outputs by 20-25% in most instances.

My last two preamps have had pretty paltry line and phone gain (in MM) and the Denon sounds clear, fine and strong.

Why

- who knows. But the extra output is nearly always appreciated by the consumer

John

lcrim · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 Jul 2009, 08:09 pm »

Maybe you do need a headamp after all

I've read that the Denon DL103 line is actually more compliant than their specs would indicate but this is the first time I've heard of the DL160 needing additional gain.
I've never been as high on the Denon cartridge line as the Benz Micro or Audio Technica lines anyway.

Scottdazzle · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 Jul 2009, 08:24 pm »

I used the DL-160 (the same one Eric is using) with three different preamps. It did require a slightly higher setting on the volume control than some other carts, but never to the extent of inadequate gain or excess noise. I would conclude that the headphone amp has very low sensitivity or low gain for the phones being used. Try a different headphone amp or more efficient headphones and see what happens.