Considering NAS

JoshK · « **on:** 19 May 2009, 04:41 pm »

I've long since wanted to get a NAS, not just for audio, but that is also a big part of it. I have multiple PCs at my home and I am tired of dealing with forgetting which PC I saved a file to. I have high hopes that I can ease lots of sharing with a NAS

I have been doing some more digging about NASs. I had been waiting for the technology to work out many of its bugs and mature some. It had seemed that no other technology on Newegg had quite a much negative reviews as many of the NAS solutions, mostly with the UI and support issues.

In the last several months, I learned about Thecus. They offer some NAS solutions that look a bit more promising for the non-corporate and affordable solutions. They have an active user group that supposedly has developed quite a number of useful applications (including media servers) for the Thecus suite of products.

I am currently considering the N4100xxx NAS, but the N5200xxx NAS is also a consideration. The 4100 is not a hot-swap and is a 4 drive solution rather than 5 drive. Those are the major differences as far as I see betwen the 4100/5200 for a mostly audio server.

The 4100 is about $449 (diskless) and the 5200 is around $640. $200 for hotswap and extra drive. Not sure that is appealing and so I am leaning towards the 4100.

The big key to choosing a NAS has been deciding on which RAID or RAID alt that I wanted to go with. I have a RAID 5 array on one of my desktops that has been ok so far. After looking into some of the alternatives it looks like RAID 5 is still the best option.

I looked into the Drobo some, with its RAID like solution (beyondRAID), but some of the reviews online made me pause. Plus I'd rather stick with non-proprietary solutions unless it is a killer app. Data robotics CS response has been lackluster and I feel this is too big of an issue to overlook.

This thread is sort of a sanity check, opinion inquiry, and inquiry to see if people have other info I might have overlooked.

The HD that is currently on the top of my list is the WD Cavier Black 640GB drive. It seems while the larger drives aren't that much more expensive (although this multiples x 4) but their reliability isn't as good so far. Seagate's reliability seems to have been called into question since their acquiring of Maxtor (which never had a good rep IMO).

I've had enough drive issues in the past that I place the highest priority on reliability over cost, speed or other considerations. I will do my best to make sure that heat is not an issue for the drives, even it that means modding the case to add more cooling provisions.

The big question is how to back up such a huge NAS! Any ideas?
One way would be to use another external drive connected to one of my desktops on the netwok to backup the NAS and then get more external drives as needed when the growth of my data. This is a quasi-MAID like solution (MAID is a write once, real seldom concept).

However, network or viral issues could affect both NAS and backups. Any other ideas?

Edit: 5200 also provides eSATA, forgot about that. That could be useful if I didn't want to set it up as a NAS and instead an external drive, but I don't think that I want to do that.

JoshK · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 May 2009, 01:27 pm »

Anyone here built or know anything about a NAS?

woodsyi · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 May 2009, 01:58 pm »

My ReadyNas (Infrant/Netgear) died after 2 years. It was the earliest version and it was a little slow. The box still works but I suspect a couple of the disks are currupt. It has 4 300GB disks. I have since moved my files to a music PC/Server with RAID 5 4x640GB.

You can have this box to play around with if you want to pay for shipping.

As for back up, I just flat out copied everything to a 1TB external disk and that is my hard back up. It only gets turned on when more files are being added. Otherwise, it's tucked away cold on a shelf.

JohnR · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 May 2009, 02:03 pm »

FWIW, I've settled on using a WD RAID1 firewire drive for my desktop and just use a NAS (*) for backups. The final plan is that the personal laptop will synchronize with a subset of the directories on the desktop (and vice versa), and the work laptop will just backup to the NAS.

I guess it all depends on what you want to accomplish and how much storage you really need. I've come to the conclusion that a reliable/proper NAS is not really achievable in a (budget-conscious) home situation. Unlike with a NAS, adding more storage to one of your computers is easy and cost-effective. I have, in effect, triple-redundancy of my data - should be good enough to cover most situations. Off-site backups are an issue right now - I think I would be inclined to spend my time figuring out how to partition that critical data so it can be backed up off-site than mucking about with a NAS, to be honest.

(*) The NAS is in transition right now. I had a Maxtor, will not buy another, right now it seems the lights go on but nobody's home... so right now a USB drive serves for backup. When I get time I will just go get a 1TB WD network drive.

JoshK · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 May 2009, 04:41 pm »

Its a tough call. I could rebuild one PC to be a server, but so far I haven't had good luck with that. I'd really want to do wake-on-lan and power saving measures. It would be more versatile though.

Anyone know of a good tutorial in setting up such a PC? I need to buy a new mobo for my storage PC anyway.

JEaton · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 May 2009, 05:40 pm »

Quote from: JoshK on 19 May 2009, 04:41 pm

The big question is how to back up such a huge NAS! Any ideas?

If you want to back up all of the data, the only practical solution is another NAS with the same or larger capacity. You can either use traditional type backups of a full backup followed by incremental (or differential) backups, or else periodically mirror the first filer server on the second.

A not so practical solution is to use multiple external hard drives. Anyone remember the days of doing PC backups on a stack of floppy disks? Same routine, but it will take much longer.

If you only choose to backup the most critical data, then using external drives will probably work.

JoshK · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 May 2009, 07:37 pm »

Then there is something like a vortexbox appliance that is purpose built $369 (1TB). Currently my collection is ~750GB. Then buy external drive to back this up.... very tempting.

rahimlee54 · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 May 2009, 09:07 pm »

I vote for building one. I plan on building one later this year and in a search found 3 or 4 sites with just about the same recommended build components and software. It will cost the same as an off the shelf with more power.

JoshK · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 May 2009, 12:26 am »

Well I took the plunge and picked up the vortex box. The price was right and I didn't want to waste anymore time fiddling with a box, I like the turn key solution. I really lost my patience with dealing with computers. I just want things to work.

I'll let folks know what I think about it when I get it. Hopefully it is as painless as it sounds and I'll get my squeezeboxen up and running again.

JoshK · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 May 2009, 02:13 pm »

For those with interest, check out the vortexbox solution:

http://vortexbox.org/

I bought the preconfigured appliance off the developer's ebay ad. $359 delivered. This includes the appliance with a DVD-rom and 1TB drive.

Its basically a stripped down PC set up to run as a media server in a NAS like way. It comes preconfigured to run Squeezecenter and to rip your CD's to FLAC and organize your collection for your playback simply by plopping the disk in the drive. It takes all the labor and guesswork out of setting up your music for computer playback.

Its meant to work with much more than just squeezeboxes, you can do whole house audio distribution, USB audio and movie and picture serving too.

I am a bit tired of messing with computers to get my computer audio to work right. I have had too many system failures and hard drive crashes in the past 5 years. I am also short on time. I know how to fix all my problems, I know how to build computers and configure them, but I am grown tired of doing so and for $359 I don't see the economic advantage to doing so. This is about music, not about tinkering with computers.

So for me this solution seems to hit the sweet spot. I will back it up using an external drive. If my collection grows larger than 1TB, it can be expanded with external drives (USB).

I thought others might be interested to see a simple solution as well. Throw the VortexBox and a router in the closet and connect a Squeezebox and your in business. You wouldn't technically even need a computer involved unless you are copying over a prior collection.

richidoo · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 May 2009, 02:32 pm »

Jared, this would make a nice little NAS server, could run anything. Mini-ITX PC.

JoshK · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 May 2009, 02:53 pm »

I received the VortexBox and hope to have time to play with it this weekend. It is "cute". Very compact form factor and not cheap looking or feeling.

I was a bit positively surprised by the packaging. Very nicely packed to avoid damage. More companies should take notice of how to properly pack like this.

I will report back with my experience since this little device is reasonably priced and is setup and ready to go to take a lot of the hassle out of computer audio.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 May 2009, 03:16 pm »

Quote from: JoshK on 28 May 2009, 02:53 pm

I will report back with my experience since this little device is reasonably priced and is setup and ready to go to take a lot of the hassle out of computer audio.

Cool Josh....

It sounds "easy"...nice...

ricmon · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 May 2009, 04:39 pm »

This is some very interesting software. I'm down loading the iso now and will install it on one of my virtual servers. This may be the perfect use for a virtual server install.

JoshK · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 May 2009, 08:17 pm »

Yes indeed, one doesn't even have to purchase the appliance to try out the vortexbox solution. I didn't make that clear. The appliance is just to take one less item of uncertainty out of the question. Its this latter one that I find more problematic, the hardware/software handshaking and configuration optimizing.

rahimlee54 · « **Reply #15 on:** 29 May 2009, 01:23 pm »

Anyone insterested in a NAS still there is one http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/External_Hard_Drives/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=04&sku=A1290630 for a good price even though I am not sure how reliable it is, it is worth a shot. It needs an OS.

ricmon · « **Reply #16 on:** 29 May 2009, 08:18 pm »

Quote from: rahimlee54 on 29 May 2009, 01:23 pm

Anyone insterested in a NAS still there is one http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/External_Hard_Drives/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=04&sku=A1290630 for a good price even though I am not sure how reliable it is, it is worth a shot. It needs an OS.

I don't think this thing needs an OS being a NAS. It probaly is running some flavor of linux and may only need to be added to you network. Having said that it seems like a good strating point. However, it only has one hard drive so no raid.

JoshK · « **Reply #17 on:** 3 Jul 2009, 08:00 pm »

So I've been playing with VortexBox. I have the VB Appliance (VBA, not to be confused with visual basic). I bought the VBA because I wanted a simple solution where I didn't have to do a lot of the configuring myself.

Well, I am so far pleased with the VBA and VB solution. Plop a cd in the drive and it rips, tags, organizes and adds to the Squeezecenter automatically. No fuss. It also grabs all the cover art for you too and makes thumbnails and folder icons. Basically trained monkeys can use the VBA. That is what I wanted.

I am updating the VB software (which is really the whole OS package) from 0.6 to 0.7 right now. The developer though has made this pretty easy and given you all the commands you need to do to do it. Not quite click one link, but still simple. You do have to download PuTty if you are doing this from a windows box connected on your network, which is what I am doing. However, you don't have to be a linux pro to use putty. All that is needed is to type in the VB's IP address, which is easiely found when you type http://vortexbox in your browser and then click the cog icon. Putty will then ask for the username and password. This is given in the paperwork. Now you copy and paste all the commands into the prompt one at a time. Voila!

It really is quite slick. Also, if for some reason something isn't working there is an active forum where most questions are answered or you can ask.

There are usb ports where you can connect an external harddrive to do backups. This is explained in a thread on the forum.

My take so far is that, yes it is linux based, but you don't have to know any linux.

The price is very reasonable, almost cheap for such a no brainer solution. I already have squeezeboxes and this was meant to be a no fuss solution to the computer side of the SB network. You click an icon on the http://vortexbox page and it brings up the squeezecenter from whatever computer you happen to be on.

I have little patience for messing about with computers in my free time even if I possess the savvy to pick up the needed know-how. I love that this is a plug and play solution.

In short, if you have avoided computer audio because of the computer part of the equation, you might want to consider the vortexbox.

doctorcilantro · « **Reply #18 on:** 6 Jul 2009, 03:49 pm »

Quote from: JoshK on 3 Jul 2009, 08:00 pm

So I've been playing with VortexBox. I have the VB Appliance (VBA, not to be confused with visual basic). I bought the VBA because I wanted a simple solution where I didn't have to do a lot of the configuring myself.

Well, I am so far pleased with the VBA and VB solution. Plop a cd in the drive and it rips, tags, organizes and adds to the Squeezecenter automatically. No fuss. It also grabs all the cover art for you too and makes thumbnails and folder icons. Basically trained monkeys can use the VBA. That is what I wanted.

I am updating the VB software (which is really the whole OS package) from 0.6 to 0.7 right now. The developer though has made this pretty easy and given you all the commands you need to do to do it. Not quite click one link, but still simple. You do have to download PuTty if you are doing this from a windows box connected on your network, which is what I am doing. However, you don't have to be a linux pro to use putty. All that is needed is to type in the VB's IP address, which is easiely found when you type http://vortexbox in your browser and then click the cog icon. Putty will then ask for the username and password. This is given in the paperwork. Now you copy and paste all the commands into the prompt one at a time. Voila!

It really is quite slick. Also, if for some reason something isn't working there is an active forum where most questions are answered or you can ask.

There are usb ports where you can connect an external harddrive to do backups. This is explained in a thread on the forum.

My take so far is that, yes it is linux based, but you don't have to know any linux.

The price is very reasonable, almost cheap for such a no brainer solution. I already have squeezeboxes and this was meant to be a no fuss solution to the computer side of the SB network. You click an icon on the http://vortexbox page and it brings up the squeezecenter from whatever computer you happen to be on.

I have little patience for messing about with computers in my free time even if I possess the savvy to pick up the needed know-how. I love that this is a plug and play solution.

In short, if you have avoided computer audio because of the computer part of the equation, you might want to consider the vortexbox.

Very cool. I prefer to have my master files "local" for analysis, tagging, database backups, etc. but this is a top notch alternative solution from your description (running a verify on 5TB of .ape or .flac files over the network vs. SATAII is a big difference). Thanks for the review.

A word of warning to those looking for the magic backup solution i.e. Drobo, if possible try to build something you have control over. I have read a few nightmare reviews of the Drobo and I ended up building my own RAID box (manual backups since I don't use the RAID but JBOD - individual drives) which could also be connected as NAS if needed. Check out Addonics. If you are going to have multiple PCs mapping drives over wireless, why not have the master hard-wired, imo, and serve the audio off the master. Sometimes I wonder if the only benefit to an NAS is that one can physically store it "out of the way".

DC

doctorcilantro · « **Reply #19 on:** 6 Jul 2009, 04:05 pm »

Quote from: JohnR on 20 May 2009, 02:03 pm

FWIW, I've settled on using a WD RAID1 firewire drive for my desktop and just use a NAS (*) for backups. The final plan is that the personal laptop will synchronize with a subset of the directories on the desktop (and vice versa), and the work laptop will just backup to the NAS.

I guess it all depends on what you want to accomplish and how much storage you really need. I've come to the conclusion that a reliable/proper NAS is not really achievable in a (budget-conscious) home situation. Unlike with a NAS, adding more storage to one of your computers is easy and cost-effective. I have, in effect, triple-redundancy of my data - should be good enough to cover most situations. Off-site backups are an issue right now - I think I would be inclined to spend my time figuring out how to partition that critical data so it can be backed up off-site than mucking about with a NAS, to be honest.

(*) The NAS is in transition right now. I had a Maxtor, will not buy another, right now it seems the lights go on but nobody's home... so right now a USB drive serves for backup. When I get time I will just go get a 1TB WD network drive.

Missed your post. Good points. NAS for backups is a good idea. The Addonics box I built has one slot-load SATA bay so I can slide in SATA drives for backups.

Has anyone experience with running a backup to a NAS while also streaming audio and video on the network? I guess I have always been leery of them, mainly based on the whole concept: a master server can be accessed over the network in a number of ways, so why should the master system have to access the master files via the network? NAS access i.e. file transfer, file analysis, transcoding can be clunky over the network.

Just doesn't make sense to me as a primary means of data storage/access; I want a wired, fast, and secure connection to my primary data repository.

DC