Baltic birch plywood versus MDF

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dvenardos

Baltic birch plywood versus MDF
« on: 7 May 2009, 07:47 am »
I have heard claims that baltic birch plywood (void free) is better for subwoofers than MDF.
What do you guys think?
What about baltic birch versus MDF for speakers?

William Schuchard

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Re: Baltic birch plywood versus MDF
« Reply #1 on: 7 May 2009, 01:10 pm »
I've had better luck with baltic birch plywood than MDF likely due to it's higher level of stiffness than MDF.  Spraying the insides of the cabinet with rubberized car undercoat or using No-Res might be a good idea to dampen the plywood a bit more.   :D

I have heard claims that baltic birch plywood (void free) is better for subwoofers than MDF.
What do you guys think?
What about baltic birch versus MDF for speakers?

Danny Richie

Re: Baltic birch plywood versus MDF
« Reply #2 on: 7 May 2009, 03:59 pm »
Do a layer of each to get strength and damping. Better still is the sand box: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=53675.0

William Schuchard

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Re: Baltic birch plywood versus MDF
« Reply #3 on: 7 May 2009, 04:52 pm »
Good idea.  Mercedes used to do something similar on their high end $100K+ cars back in the late 80's with their body panels.  It was a layer of steel, a layer of rubber, and a layer of steel.  The result was a very non-resonant strong body panel.  When cutting with a torch, the small amounts of rubber would make an awful smell.  I noticed this when doing auto body while saving for college.  Some of their interior parts were the same way.  These days it's a different story.

Do a layer of each to get strength and damping. Better still is the sand box: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=53675.0

BrianH

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Re: Baltic birch plywood versus MDF
« Reply #4 on: 7 May 2009, 05:32 pm »
For the sub I am currently building I am using 1" mdf with 2" in front. The reason why I chose to do this had nothing to do with the old discussion of BB vs mdf but all about just building a good solid box. Since mine is going to be plain black it didn't make any difference in looks.

BB is very much stronger than mdf in every way I can think of. Good construction methods can offset that strength advantage a lot.

I have read often that some speaker builders like 1/4" plywood laminated to 3/4' or 1/2" mdf, giving the outside a wood grain finish and some additional strength without messing around with veneering. Thats an idea laminate the two materials. BB and mdf are not the same, pro's and cons exist for both, there are advocates for both materials. I always thought that construction methods made more difference to sound than small differences in the material.

I read so many times on the forums about so many folks being woodworking novices so at the risk of sounding like lecturing here is some safety info ...

If you are working around mdf dust. Use the right dust mask. For that matter look below under masks about regular wood dust as well.

"MDF, or medium density fiberboard, is a composite material made from wood fibers glued together and contains formaldehyde, which has been shown to cause cancer in animals and is a probable human carcinogen. It also irritates the eyes, skin and mucous membranes. Even brief exposure to low concentrations can trigger asthma attacks in sensitive people. Cutting, drilling and machining MDF generates large amounts of fibrous dust, and breathing this has been linked to asthma and cancer. The possible risks have been widely publicized and DIYers are advised to take precautions, such as wearing face masks and opening doors and windows."

Dust mask types ...

P1: for harmless, non-binding dust
In other words: simple jobs around the house, sweeping the garden, etc.

P2 : for harmful dust
You need this as a MINIMAL protection when you drill, sand, grind, cut, saw etc. the following materials:

All ferro-metals, such as carbon steel, etc.
All polyester and aramide fibers, such as micarta, all plastics, but also MDF, etc.
All soft woods, such as pine, spruce, etc.
Dust from wheat, flour, crops, etc.
Dust from cement, concrete, etc.
And more.

P3 : for toxic dust
For enzymes, spores, bacteria, viruses.
Quartz, silcum/silicate materials (for instance sand lime bricks)
All hardwoods: oak, beech, but also tropical species such as meranti, bankirai, and the well known species like cocobolo etc etc.
All non-ferro metals like stainless steel, aluminium, copper, brass (tubing!), lead, gold, silver, etc.
Fumes from welding
And more.


planet10

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Re: Baltic birch plywood versus MDF
« Reply #5 on: 7 May 2009, 06:15 pm »
Baltic Birch ply (or any other void free ply with lots of plys) is stronger, stiffer, lighter, and better damped than MDF. On the downside it isn't as easy to finish and is more expensive.

When using plywood in a sub it is very easy to push panel resonances* way above the passband where they won't getting excited (any addition of "damping" goop on the inside panels is actually counter productive) effectively making a resonance free box.

*(bracing should never be on a panel centre line and is best oriented such that the sub-panels have higher aspect ratios than the original panels)

In a sub, keeping it from ballooning is just as important. Ply's higher stiffness helps here.

Another big benefit of a plywood box is that it will be easier to lift at the end (i always recommend push-push loading to cancel newtonian forces which renders a high mass sub of no advantage)

Also note that if using MDF it is very important to seal MDF since it is not air tight (a sheet of MDF is often used as a protective layer between the vacuum hold-down CNC machine & the piece being worked)

a lengthy thread on diyA discussing this subject http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98834

dave

dvenardos

Re: Baltic birch plywood versus MDF
« Reply #6 on: 7 May 2009, 07:48 pm »
Thanks for the input and links guys.
I wasn't aware that this was a tired issue as I am new to speaker building.

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Baltic birch plywood versus MDF
« Reply #7 on: 7 May 2009, 09:20 pm »
Who said it was a tired issue?
Seems like you're getting pretty good info so far.  :scratch:

Bob

dvenardos

Re: Baltic birch plywood versus MDF
« Reply #8 on: 7 May 2009, 10:12 pm »
Who said it was a tired issue?
Seems like you're getting pretty good info so far.  :scratch:

Yes, very good info indeed. Rereading it, not sure where I picked that up either.  :scratch:
In any case, I appreciate the comments.  :thumb:

Christof

Re: Baltic birch plywood versus MDF
« Reply #9 on: 8 May 2009, 12:05 am »
Baltic Birch ply (or any other void free ply with lots of plys) is stronger, stiffer, lighter, and better damped than MDF. On the downside it isn't as easy to finish and is more expensive.

When using plywood in a sub it is very easy to push panel resonances* way above the passband where they won't getting excited (any addition of "damping" goop on the inside panels is actually counter productive) effectively making a resonance free box.

*(bracing should never be on a panel centre line and is best oriented such that the sub-panels have higher aspect ratios than the original panels)

In a sub, keeping it from ballooning is just as important. Ply's higher stiffness helps here.

Another big benefit of a plywood box is that it will be easier to lift at the end (i always recommend push-push loading to cancel newtonian forces which renders a high mass sub of no advantage)

Also note that if using MDF it is very important to seal MDF since it is not air tight (a sheet of MDF is often used as a protective layer between the vacuum hold-down CNC machine & the piece being worked)

a lengthy thread on diyA discussing this subject http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98834

dave

Dave

I think you have made a good point regarding raising the res. freq of the panel with bracing and then omitting the "goop" which, in theory should lower it back down.

Read through the DiyA thread...once again people rag on solid wood, as if solid wood is so excitable it's going to get right up and dance across the floor while, on the other hand, plywood and mdf will just sit there like a perfect bump on the log.  Sure there are issues with solid wood construction but they are not the end of the world.  I know the OP asked about mdf vs. ply so I'll end it here.


planet10

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Re: Baltic birch plywood versus MDF
« Reply #10 on: 8 May 2009, 12:30 am »
One can make a nice cabinet with solid wood, there are just the issues of keeping it from cracking as the weather changes. The local Home Despot has both butcher block pine & ecyliptus shelving i have been sorely thinking of trying out in a cabinet... not cheap thou.

dave