FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC

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oneinthepipe

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FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« on: 30 Apr 2009, 06:03 pm »
I know that some forum members use computer-based sources, but I don't know very much about the technology.  However, I was between appointments this morning, and I stopped by my local You-Do-It Electronics and picked up an optical audio cable, and 3.5 adapter, and a $29.90 toslink-to-coax adapter (the store didn't have the Audio Authority adapter, but if that is a better adapter, I will buy one).  I came home for lunch and connected the cable and adapters between my iMac and my T8+ DAC.  I ripped a CD as a FLAC file with Max, with the iTunes compatibility option, and I used iTunes to play the tracks.  The music sounds very good.  Honestly, I am surprised.  I can't conduct an A-B comparison because my DACs are not the same model, but later I will listen to both sources through the Insight DAC.  This seems a lot easier than I thought.  OK, I am off to read The Discless Circle.

Brett Buck

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Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #1 on: 30 Apr 2009, 10:12 pm »
I know that some forum members use computer-based sources, but I don't know very much about the technology.  However, I was between appointments this morning, and I stopped by my local You-Do-It Electronics and picked up an optical audio cable, and 3.5 adapter, and a $29.90 toslink-to-coax adapter (the store didn't have the Audio Authority adapter, but if that is a better adapter, I will buy one).  I came home for lunch and connected the cable and adapters between my iMac and my T8+ DAC.  I ripped a CD as a FLAC file with Max, with the iTunes compatibility option, and I used iTunes to play the tracks.  The music sounds very good.  Honestly, I am surprised.  I can't conduct an A-B comparison because my DACs are not the same model, but later I will listen to both sources through the Insight DAC.  This seems a lot easier than I thought.  OK, I am off to read The Discless Circle.

  I have been using something like that, too - not FLAC, but the general arrangement using iTunes (and airtunes). I use Apple Lossless. I think - repeat *think* - that  there is no compression in the path, and that the bits that come off the CD are the bits that show up at the output of the Airport Express, meaning, perfectly identical sound quality between the two sources. That's certainly what it sounds like to me. I have the CD player digital out and the Airport Express optical out on adjacent ports on the Inday switcher and can switch A-B easily. I can't tell the difference. I can tell the difference between Apple Lossless and iTunes Plus (256K AAC) quite easily, to it's at least a lot better than that.

    BTW, the Airport Express has an analog output as well. That, you can tell the difference!

     Brett

 p.s. and, by the way, I have a very similar system to yours  - main difference being I have an Omegastar preamp and a Omegastar 260 vice 440.
« Last Edit: 30 Apr 2009, 11:56 pm by Brett Buck »

cdorval1

Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #2 on: 1 May 2009, 02:25 am »
I'm using the digital output from our iMac to directly feed an Ultra DAC, T8 and FET Valve 550exr.  I've ripped most of our CDs into iTunes via the AIFF format, which is uncompressed and lossless.  I can hear no difference from the original CDs.  Like Brett, I can hear a difference with iTunes Plus, though it's not bad.  And it's fun to make playlists and shuffle!

Craig

oneinthepipe

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Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #3 on: 1 May 2009, 03:24 am »
I'm using the digital output from our iMac to directly feed an Ultra DAC, T8 and FET Valve 550exr.  I've ripped most of our CDs into iTunes via the AIFF format, which is uncompressed and lossless.  I can hear no difference from the original CDs.  Like Brett, I can hear a difference with iTunes Plus, though it's not bad.  And it's fun to make playlists and shuffle!

Craig

How do you directly feed?  Do you use some type of converter?  I am using a toslink to digital coax converter (Philmore-Datak No. 45-1245; $29.90 retail, but surely available for less).

I ripped some tracks through lossless, FLAC, and WAV, and I don't hear a difference, but they weren't the same track (duh).  They sound pretty good.

Brett Buck

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Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #4 on: 1 May 2009, 04:00 am »
I'm using the digital output from our iMac to directly feed an Ultra DAC, T8 and FET Valve 550exr.  I've ripped most of our CDs into iTunes via the AIFF format, which is uncompressed and lossless.  I can hear no difference from the original CDs.  Like Brett, I can hear a difference with iTunes Plus, though it's not bad.  And it's fun to make playlists and shuffle!

Craig

   If nothing else, it's a great way to keep track of and find music. Sorting through hundreds of CDs to find the one you want is no small problem. Until I set this up (enabled by the Insight+ DAC) I didn't fully appreciate the genius of iTunes. It's not the store, it's not the compression schemes, it's not the iPod loading, it's the ability to sort and find the music.

     Brett

p.s. idle question, and maybe I am missing something obvious, but how are you getting a digital audio directly from the iMac?  Near as I can tell, my pretty new iMac doesn't have anything aside from an analog audio output. Some gadget hooked to USB?  I am using AirTunes.

oneinthepipe

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Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #5 on: 1 May 2009, 04:34 am »
I'm using the digital output from our iMac to directly feed an Ultra DAC, T8 and FET Valve 550exr.  I've ripped most of our CDs into iTunes via the AIFF format, which is uncompressed and lossless.  I can hear no difference from the original CDs.  Like Brett, I can hear a difference with iTunes Plus, though it's not bad.  And it's fun to make playlists and shuffle!

Craig

   If nothing else, it's a great way to keep track of and find music. Sorting through hundreds of CDs to find the one you want is no small problem. Until I set this up (enabled by the Insight+ DAC) I didn't fully appreciate the genius of iTunes. It's not the store, it's not the compression schemes, it's not the iPod loading, it's the ability to sort and find the music.

     Brett

p.s. idle question, and maybe I am missing something obvious, but how are you getting a digital audio directly from the iMac?  Near as I can tell, my pretty new iMac doesn't have anything aside from an analog audio output. Some gadget hooked to USB?  I am using AirTunes.

The analog audio output is also an optical digital audio output. The port automatically selects digital or analog based upon the cable.  When you plug in the optical digital cable, you can verify that the output is optical in the sound preference panel. Just slip a 3.5 mm optical digital adapter ($2.99) on a toslink cable and the headphone/speaker port transmits optical digital (red light).  I just needed the toslink to coax adapter in order to connect a digital coax cable to the DAC.  Last week, I went to the Apple Store (only because I was in the mall, a rarity in itself), and I asked a genius if they had a 3.5mm toslink adapter, and the genius asked me what was toslink.  Then, when I explained how I intended to use my iMac as a music source, he questioned my reasons for wanting to convert digital to analog.  I tried to tell him that CD players and computers have built-in digital to analog converters and even iPods have built-in digital to analog converters.  I asked him how he thought the red light (aka the digital output) was converted to sound, and asked him if they sold digital headphones, and he gave me the smirk that says, "You, sir, are an idiot" (not an ahole; just an idiot).  He could be correct, but I think that Apple merely refers to them as geniuses.  Any genius testing is probably not very objective.

BTW, the Airport Express also has a 3.5mm audio port for analog or digital output.  If a non-optical cable is used, I suspect that the signal is analog because the jack/port automatically selects whether the output will be digital or analog and the signal will have already gone through the computers built-in DAC, defeating the potential of the AVA DAC, but maybe not.  Also, if you used an analog 3.5mm jack, I don't know if you would use a mono or stereo analog 3.5mm jack that terminates as an RCA plug and how a mono or stereo jack would effect the input to the DAC.  I don't know enough about the iMac's or AirPort's operation to speak competently. 

I ran cable rather than using AirTunes because my computer is near the DAC, the cable and converter (about $50.00) was less expensive, I hardwire everything, if possible, and I don't know anything about AirTunes.

Brett Buck

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Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #6 on: 1 May 2009, 05:02 am »

The analog audio output is also an optical digital audio output. The port automatically selects digital or analog based upon the cable.  When you plug in the optical digital cable, you can verify that the output is optical in the sound preference panel. Just slip a 3.5 mm optical digital adapter ($2.99) on a toslink cable and the headphone/speaker jack transmits optical digital (red light).  I just needed the toslink to coax adapter in order to connect a digital coax cable to the DAC.  Last week, I went to the Apple Store (only because I was in the mall, a rarity in itself), and I asked a genius if they had a 3.5mm toslink adapter, and the genius asked me what was toslink. 
<<snip>>
Any genius testing is probably not very objective.

   Oh! I was familiar with the concept, but I had no idea the port was one of those dual output things. Learn something new every day.

   I have had occasional dealings with the Apple Store, and the degree of genius among the geniuses tends to vary quite a lot.

     Brett

turkey

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Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #7 on: 1 May 2009, 12:43 pm »
   Oh! I was familiar with the concept, but I had no idea the port was one of those dual output things. Learn something new every day.

It had me puzzled too. I was thinking of buying a Mini and when I read the specs it listed optical digital output and I didn't see a Toslink connector. I checked around on the net and finally figured it out.

Quote
   I have had occasional dealings with the Apple Store, and the degree of genius among the geniuses tends to vary quite a lot.

They're probably much better than what you find in most other places you would buy a computer. Apple's support has always been at least a notch or two above the rest in general.

I don't know if I'll buy another Mac though. I've been using Linux more and more over the years, and it's about time to drop the other OSes for use at home.


Wayner

Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #8 on: 1 May 2009, 12:49 pm »
I have an old Mini-disc recorder/player (portable) that has that kind of jack. I ripped some very nice recordings onto the Minidisc with the optical cable. It's sure is obvious why Minidiscs failed. Although, I have used it at a couple of concerts and made some listenable recordings, with the smallish stereo microphone.

Wayner

Art_Chicago

Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #9 on: 1 May 2009, 02:54 pm »
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10229&cs_id=1022902&p_id=1558&seq=1&format=2

You can also get an optical cable with a minijack (link above). I found that the AC's  Apple Core is a good source of information for this kind of questions  :thumb:
I am getting a MacBook Pro, and will be using my DAC for hi-rez files from HDtracks.com. Excited to hear a difference (or not!).
 :D

oneinthepipe

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Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #10 on: 1 May 2009, 03:02 pm »
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10229&cs_id=1022902&p_id=1558&seq=1&format=2

You can also get an optical cable with a minijack (link above). I found that the AC's  Apple Core is a good source of information for this kind of questions  :thumb:
I am getting a MacBook Pro, and will be using my DAC for hi-rez files from HDtracks.com. Excited to hear a difference (or not!).
 :D

What type of DAC do you have?  I don't think that most DACs will play hi-rez files.

I need a new toslink to digital converter.  The cheapie converter that I bought yesterday has intermittent noise (when I move the box the noise stops).  I am not sure if I should buy the Audio Authority model or an AirPort Express.  If I buy the AirPort Express, I suspect that I would be required to use iTunes as the digital player.  Anyone?

Art_Chicago

Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #11 on: 1 May 2009, 03:32 pm »
Hi, oneinthepipe,

My DAC will play a maximum 24/96 resolution, although I kind of doubt that for 16/44 it is near AVA Insight DAC in therms of SQ ( it is only 250 bucks new after all).
I believe Frank sells the converters exactly as you need for $75.  :thumb:

You may also get a switch box with 4 input ( 2 optical + 2 co-ax) and 1 output co-ax from Frank's approved manufacture! There was a thread here several months ago about it.

cdorval1

Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #12 on: 1 May 2009, 04:50 pm »
This is a great thread.  I use this optical-to-coax digital converter from Parts Express: http://www.parts-express.com//pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=180-961
It's been on continuously for the last two years--never a problem, totally quiet, very small, inexpensive.

And here's the adapter to play digital directly from the audio output (headphone) jack of virtually any Mac these days: http://www.parts-express.com//pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=180-961

I strongly advise hard wiring from your computer to your stereo if possible.  Airtunes is clever, and is ok for background, but the signal from computer to Airport is either compressed or sampled.  Of course, hard wiring presents practical problems.  When my wife and I put a peninsula between our kitchen and living/dining room, we had the chance to plan for the iMac to be on it, and so we had a coax digital line run from the peninsula to our stereo cabinet in the living room.  It wasn't that expensive, considering the incredible convenience and quality involved.

I'll probably sound like an Apple-head, but I gotta say it's way cool to sit in our living room and be able to look at, select and play our entire music collection from the palm of my hand,, using the iPhone "play" app.  Like Brett says, the ability to find, organize, rate music, see cover art is what makes iTunes fun.  And to have it all right there on a color screen in your hand, with the Van Alstine volume remote in the other, I mean, why get up?

Of course, none of this applies to our LPs and manual turntable.  Gotta get up every 20 minutes or so.  What an effort.

Life is good.

Craig

cdorval1

Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #13 on: 1 May 2009, 04:58 pm »
One more thing...

Brett, are you able to compare a direct digital feed with your Airport Express?  I'm very interested that you her no difference from CDs using the Airport.

Brett Buck

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Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #14 on: 1 May 2009, 08:20 pm »
One more thing...

Brett, are you able to compare a direct digital feed with your Airport Express?  I'm very interested that you her no difference from CDs using the Airport.

   Actually, yes, but not from the Mac optical port and AirTunes, from CD transport digital coax.  Of course it is compressed for transmission, but it appears to be a non-lossy compression. I would be curious what the details are, if you know them.

   I don't have a logic analyzer so I can't directly compare the bits.

     Brett

oneinthepipe

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Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #15 on: 1 May 2009, 08:52 pm »
Hi, oneinthepipe,

My DAC will play a maximum 24/96 resolution, although I kind of doubt that for 16/44 it is near AVA Insight DAC in therms of SQ ( it is only 250 bucks new after all).
I believe Frank sells the converters exactly as you need for $75.  :thumb:

You may also get a switch box with 4 input ( 2 optical + 2 co-ax) and 1 output co-ax from Frank's approved manufacture! There was a thread here several months ago about it.

Art:

Thanks.  That is the Audio Authority box.  I'll probably order one when Frank gets back from AKFEST.  I can happily tell you that I don't need the switch box, as yet, because I have two AVA DACs.   :thumb:

oneinthepipe

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Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #16 on: 1 May 2009, 08:56 pm »
I use this optical-to-coax digital converter from Parts Express: http://www.parts-express.com//pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=180-961


That looks exactly like the adapter that I am having problems with, but the problem is likely just with the unit that I bought, because the retailer (liars, all of them  :lol:  )  told me that they sell them frequently and had never had a return.  BTW, an adapter that looks identical is available from monoprice for $12.00.

Brett Buck

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Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #17 on: 6 May 2009, 01:33 am »
I strongly advise hard wiring from your computer to your stereo if possible.  Airtunes is clever, and is ok for background, but the signal from computer to Airport is either compressed or sampled. 

    I have confirmed that the compression is Apple lossless for transmission. Any format that happens to be in iTunes is encoded into lossless to transmit. That allows the Airport express to only have to decode one type of stream, but, far more importantly no quality is lost from the original file. If you start with CD, encode it to iTunes using AIFF or Apple Lossless, what shows up at the optical output of the Airport express is bitwise identical to playing the CD through a player and taking the optical output. So, no changes to the bitstream whatsover. So there's nothing like "ok for background, but hardwiring works best" - it's 1:1 identical.

   Of course if its encoded with lossy format, then you get that, plus whatever issues it has reconstructing the original to get it to lossless, but nobody is going to use that for audiophile purposes anyway.

   Note also that at least some of the Macs (current iMac, for example) also can play HDCD format, but there's no way to store that in iTunes or use it digitally without converting it down to 16 bits, at least that I have been able to find. Aside from just sticking headphones in the analog outputs, which actually sounds pretty good. You can definitely tell the difference between HDCD and conventional 16-bit AIFF of the same source, even using the internal headphone amp. But the 16-bit digital output into a Frank DAC is far superior to both.

     Brett

oneinthepipe

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Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #18 on: 10 May 2009, 04:57 am »
I returned a faulty toslink to coax adapter and a toslink cable and a 3.5mm adapter to a local retailer, and I purchased a toslink to coax adapter for 11.16, a "premium" toslink cable for 6.00, and several 3.5mm adapters for .66 each from monoprice with 5.95 shipping.  The total expenditure was 25.75.  The toslink to coax adapter looks like the adapter that I bought at You-Do-It Electronics and a photo of the adapter that is sold by Parts Express.  Maybe it is a cheaper imitation of a cheap adapter, but I couldn't discern any difference.  I plugged the toslink to coax adapter's little power brick into an outlet that is shared with my computer.  My amp is on a dedicated circuit and my preamp, CDP, turntable and DACs are on a second dedicated circuit.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10423&cs_id=1042302&p_id=2948&seq=1&format=2


I tried numerous OS 10.X applications to rip, play, and burn "lossless" formats, such as Max, Songbird, MacFLAC, and iTunes.  I couldn't detect any difference in sound quality, and I have settled, for now, to rip CDs in WAV format with iTunes.  I can't tell any difference in sound between the WAV files played in iTunes/DAC and the same tracks played on my CDP/DAC (using the same DAC for comparison).  If I had a better CD player or transport or better hearing, perhaps I would detect a difference, but my system is very revealing, and my hearing isn't too bad, IMO.  Regardless, the computer-stored tracks are very convenient to use, especially since playlists can be created from multiple albums.  Since I have two DACs, I have the Insight+ DAC connected to my CDP and the T8+ DAC connected to my computer.

ArthurDent

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Re: FLAC files through AVA T8+ DAC
« Reply #19 on: 10 May 2009, 05:35 am »
oip - While it sounds like you've got it handled, if you should go looking for an adapter in the future, and it's not out of budget, these are the alternate folks that Frank recommends http://www.inday.com/. Their base unit has 4 dual inputs, with single coax output pair ($129). Also comes with a remote. Has come in handy for the split 2 channel/HT system. Nice folks too. Am using one with the Insight DAC in the dual system, and one on the Ultra DAC as my Sony CD Changer only has optical out for digital.