[Wayner]

I received a new audio catalog in the mail the other day and they were all excited that some of their new products were "Green" 'cause they only consumed 1 watt when they were off, in stand-by mode.

Well, Frank's products are totally 100% green, 'cause when they're off, they consume 0 watts. That's 'cause they are actually "off".

Of course, there is no "stand-by" mode, but if you want to stand by them, feel free. I usually turn on the equipment and then look for an LP to play that suits the mood.

Frank should also get another "Green" award, as his products are recyclable via upgrades. See how many other manufacturers will take a 7 year old preamp, amp or DAC and reuse the cabinet to rejuvenate the electronics to the lastest state of the art.

Green, baby, Green. Green all the way.

Wayner 

[martyo]

As a family that puts a lot of thought in all our purchases, we have always placed a high value on this component of AVA. I've posted of it before. We could figure it out by just reading about AVA, but I wish Frank would make being environmentally responsible a part of his advertising. He is a responsible entrepreneur on all levels, including treating employees responsibly and still puts out a very quality product that I think is unsurpassed in "Bang for the Buck". It can be done!

I'm glad to be able to applaud AVA on much more than just the sound.......

[turkey]

Frank should also get another "Green" award, as his products are recyclable via upgrades. See how many other manufacturers will take a 7 year old preamp, amp or DAC and reuse the cabinet to rejuvenate the electronics to the lastest state of the art.

Green, baby, Green. Green all the way.

Yeah, but I hear he's going in for a detailing and they'll buff all the green tarnish off.

AVA is certainly "greener" in some ways than other companies, but what's green about a tube amp? How efficient is an Ultimate 70? (How green are the tubes being made in Communist or former Communist countries where they don't give a rat's a** about pollution?)

How many of the upgrades are of the rip and replace kind where most of the guts are thrown in the trash, leaving only big parts like sheet metal, transformers, heatsinks, and caps? Sheet metal, transformers, and heatsinks are probably the most likely things to actually be recycled anyway if the device gets scrapped.

Circuit boards get "recycled" too, but it's mostly done to retrieve precious metals and is done in one of the aforementioned countries that don't care about rodent rears.

It's great that many of Frank's customers can have their gear upgraded economically. Not many companies do that. I just don't know how "green" it is.

(Sorry, I've just been bombarded with claims of "green" in the last couple of years, and I now question everything with that appellation.)

[2bigears]

  Green is good and there are levels of green for sure.even if your trying,hats off to AVA for Mother Earth.....

[Wayner]

Turkey,

Unless we all start reading Mother Earth magazine, there is only so much that can be done, at least for the time being. I actually consider the "Green" movement a joke. There are lots of recycling companies that pollute like a bastard. I remember when Al Gore went to get his little "Green" award, that the convoy consisted of 4 SUVs.

I really wish some folks would understand our world at the sub-atomic level. Think that we are the first recyclers? Mother nature has been doing it since day 1. Believe me, when we all die, little critters will carry us off in all kinds of directions. Our molecules will be broken down into atoms and be used to temporarily manufacture something else, like a tree. Matter can't be created or destroyed. We can temporarily spit an atom apart, but it quickly reforms with what ever is handy.

I don't want this to boil into a political soup, but there is some common sense that has been lost and I think lots of folks have contributed to it. If wasting energy is your pet peeve, I once did a study to see how much power a home consumed when everyone was gone and everything was supposedly "off".

Depending on the season, the amperage was significant. All kinds of devices are "on" waiting for a remote control signal like the TVs, garrage door openers and even wireless phones. The smoke detectors are on, the CO detectors are on. The fridge, freezer, Furnace (in winter), water softener, microwave oven, cooking range, computer junk, and of course, hifi equipment. Walk around your house at night with the lights out and be amazed at all the LED lights on all kinds of stuff. It looks like a frickin' Christmas tree in my lower level.

If I build another house, there are going to be lots of switched outlets, to kill power to all of these power suckers.

By the way, if you buy any of the new compact fluorescent lamps and screw them into a socket that is base up (ceiling mounted), you'll be lucky to get a year out of it. That is a different story for a different day.

Wayner 

[dB Cooper]

As Wayner pointed out, the ability to "recycle" chassis and other durable parts goes a long way on the "green" scale. AVA is unique in this regard AFAIK.

Funny "green" hypocrisy story: A couple years ago, Greenpeace was "painting" the San Francisco Apple store green with a floodlight to bring attention to Apple's environmental practices.

The floodlight was powered from a smoke-belching diesel generator. 

[martyo]

Any serious and complex issue can be reduced to the crap of cable "news". Cynics abound, it's easy. Individual choices make differences. One could look at all my families choices and find one's that are wasteful and hedonistic. They would also find many more green and "serving and giving to less fortunate" type choices. AND you would also find many that are compromises, but usually pointing in a direction. It depends on which lense you view life through

I understand the cynic, I'm a born-again cynic. Often it's very funny, but other than that, it brings nothing positive to the table. This aspect of AVA is flat out good, too bad you seem unable to see it Turk.

[genjamon]

Ok, but we're not marketing anything on this discussion board.  Isn't there room in the conversation for reasonable people to acknowledge true accomplishments and positives like what AVA does with reusing chassis, etc., while at the same time still acknowledge the endebtedness of this hifi hobby to extractive, exploitive, and ultimately unsustainable human-environment and global social relations?  Critical thought and cynicism are not the same, and the former doesn't have to lead to the latter.

My 2 cents,
Ben

[Bill]

This green thing is becoming a little too abstruse for me. Can we discuss something like nuclear physics instead?

[orthobiz]

Interesting discussion. BTW, Wayner, I just bought The Big Express by XTC last weekend, "recycled" vinyl.

I still have my 1977 Dahlquists, my 1979 Linn Sondek. I bought an AVA modified Dynaco preamp that I traded back to Frank for my T7 that I traded back to Frank for my Ultra preamp (he sold both to another enthusiast). My Dynaco 410 and Sumo Charlie and Electra were sold on eBay, partially funded my 550EXR that I eventually had upgraded to a Double Ultra (had an Ultra that I sold to a member of this board). I bought a modded Magnum Dynalab. Still have a PS Audio Power Director. Still have a Rega Saturn.

So all told, my audio footprint (is "footprint" the opposite of "green") involves the leftover garbage from my Dahlquist cap/resistor upgrades and whatever Frank threw out when I had my EXR "doubled." Everything else I either kept or sold to someone else who's using it!

Now, please don't ask what happened to all the computers I upgraded, I mean, replaced, in the same time frame.

Paul

[G.Michael]

By the way, if you buy any of the new compact fluorescent lamps and screw them into a socket that is base up (ceiling mounted), you'll be lucky to get a year out of it. That is a different story for a different day.

Why is that?
Yup, I've had a couple of those ceiling-mounted in my basement, and they didn't last long.

And I even broke one, which leads me to this advice from the Popular Mechanics website.
What is the proper way to handle a broken CFL?
"Open the windows and let the room air out for 15 to 30 minutes, then remove as much material as possible without a vacuum cleaner. Using disposable gloves, scoop the glass onto a piece of cardboard and wipe the area with a wet paper towel. For smaller pieces of glass and powder, use duct tape to pull up the fragments and wash your hands after cleaning up the debris."

So, I'm glad Frank doesn't put CFLs in his equipment! 

 
 

[Wayner]

As most of you may not know, in my previous life, I was a lighting equipment designer (27 years) for a division of Hubbell. So I know the lighting industry fairly well.

The CFLs die early because they have not really designed one for "base up" operation, only "base down". When the lamp is hanging upside down, all of the mercury condenses on the bulb wall at the bottom. When the lamp tries to start (uses higher starting voltage), it has to vaporize the metal droplets. When that happens, the arc stream finally connects the anode and cathode and it makes a the phosphorescent glow...then we have light. When the lamp starts to age, this process becomes more difficult on the starter (because the lamp is in the wrong position) and pre-mature failure happens.

When the lamp is mounted in the base down position, like in a table lamp, the mercury collects right on top of the anode and cathode, making ignition easy and quick. This is the desired position for this kind of lamp.

Because the lamps have mercury and other stuff in them, it is recommended to recycle them with your local haz-mat facility.

Wayner 

[Zheeeem]

Unless we all start reading Mother Earth magazine, there is only so much that can be done, at least for the time being. I actually consider the "Green" movement a joke. There are lots of recycling companies that pollute like a bastard. I remember when Al Gore went to get his little "Green" award, that the convoy consisted of 4 SUVs.

I really wish some folks would understand our world at the sub-atomic level. Think that we are the first recyclers? Mother nature has been doing it since day 1. Believe me, when we all die, little critters will carry us off in all kinds of directions. Our molecules will be broken down into atoms and be used to temporarily manufacture something else, like a tree. Matter can't be created or destroyed. We can temporarily spit an atom apart, but it quickly reforms with what ever is handy.

I don't want this to boil into a political soup, but there is some common sense that has been lost and I think lots of folks have contributed to it. If wasting energy is your pet peeve, I once did a study to see how much power a home consumed when everyone was gone and everything was supposedly "off".

Depending on the season, the amperage was significant. All kinds of devices are "on" waiting for a remote control signal like the TVs, garrage door openers and even wireless phones. The smoke detectors are on, the CO detectors are on. The fridge, freezer, Furnace (in winter), water softener, microwave oven, cooking range, computer junk, and of course, hifi equipment. Walk around your house at night with the lights out and be amazed at all the LED lights on all kinds of stuff. It looks like a frickin' Christmas tree in my lower level.

If I build another house, there are going to be lots of switched outlets, to kill power to all of these power suckers.

By the way, if you buy any of the new compact fluorescent lamps and screw them into a socket that is base up (ceiling mounted), you'll be lucky to get a year out of it. That is a different story for a different day.

Wayner 

Mmmmmm.  The green movement may be a joke.  But it's probably better than no green movement at all.

The evolution into an environmentally sustainable economy will be a long time coming, with many fits and starts.  Your example of CFLs is a good example.  On one hand, in use they are more energy efficient than incandescent.  On the other hand, they are more expensive to make (and consume more energy to make), use more materials and contain a very toxic chemical (mercury).  There is probably a small net benefit to the end user, and a smaller net benefit to the environment, but there are still tradeoffs that make it clear that CLFs are not a long term solution.  Hopefully OLED and quantum dot technologies offer more significant advancements.  Companies shift into such new technologies because there is perceived demand which, in the case of energy efficient products comes from a variety of sources - customer desires to save money or protect the environment, government pressure or encouragement, and yes, even encouragement from green NGOs.

Four years ago I moved from an energy efficient home (new) to an energy inefficient home (late 50s).  To amuse myself, I've been working fairly diligently to lower my energy bills.  I can afford more, and let's face it, we're awfully rich here in north america (and western europe and japan).  But it just seems right to consume less.

I started buying AVA electronics a bit over 30 years ago, with a FET-5 Mark-2.  I still have the box, with one upgrade.  I also still have my Hafler-bodied MOSFET 200B.  And I also have a full set of newer (4 years old) AVA stuff in my big rig.  What's not been rebuilt has been resold through AVA.  I've not done any of this because of environmental consciousness, but really because that's how AVA works best.

[turkey]

The CFLs die early because they have not really designed one for "base up" operation, only "base down". When the lamp is hanging upside down, all of the mercury condenses on the bulb wall at the bottom. When the lamp tries to start (uses higher starting voltage), it has to vaporize the metal droplets. When that happens, the arc stream finally connects the anode and cathode and it makes a the phosphorescent glow...then we have light. When the lamp starts to age, this process becomes more difficult on the starter (because the lamp is in the wrong position) and pre-mature failure happens.

In addition, the starter is complex in this type of lamp and not nearly as resistant to heat as is normal for a lighting product.

Using the lamp base up heats up the starter and leads to early failure.

The CFL is also almost completely unusable in enclosed fixtures. They don't even last as long as incandescent bulbs in these.

[Wayner]

It is a joke. It's smoke and mirrors. The consumer sees the wonderful new product, but didn't see the process to make it and what that process did to the environment. You can't judge the product by the end user in many cases. In the case of the CFL, the only one getting a helping hand is the power producer. The CFL is an extra-cost burden on the consumer (a hidden tax, if you will) and the guy that benefited from your expense is the power generating company, of which you still pay the bill, and if their earnings aren't up to snuff, will increase your bill regardless of your energy conservation.

A case in point just happened in our local town. We have 2 large industries that use lots of water. Those industries got someone on the city counsel to have the town build a huge water softener system. That way, the 2 industries wouldn't have so much plumbing damage. Well, the plant got built, and you guessed it, everybody disconnected their water softener. Well, the water usage dropped so much, they had to raise the price of water. There is the consumer (and taxpayer) stuck with the bill for the new water softener plant (maintenance, supplies, energy, labor) and then stuck with an increased monthly bill for water use. This is one of the stupidest scenarios I  have ever seen. Wasting money is not green either as it has side effects of it's own, down the line.

By the way, Frank recycles all of his electronic stuff from a rebuild. At least this is better then throwing it away.

[turkey]

I understand the cynic, I'm a born-again cynic. Often it's very funny, but other than that, it brings nothing positive to the table. This aspect of AVA is flat out good, too bad you seem unable to see it Turk.

I object to the "AVA is green, green, green" type of statement. I don't think it is that clear-cut.

We also simply don't have enough information to conclude that "This aspect of AVA is flat out good."

What happens to the guts from old gear? Maybe it's being buried in the backyard and the reason Frank had to move from Burnsville was that the backyard was full.

What is the typical lifecycle for a stereo component at AVA's quality level? Do we as AVA customers simply dole out smaller amounts of money more frequently and get upgrades, or do we really get more use out of the parts in our gear?

[avahifi]

Whoops, I certainly do not recycle everything.  Certainly not parts that age or run hot.  And not five cent parts that cost more than five cents to remove and re-use.  

I have boxes of old stuffed circuit cards that get dumped to the electronics graveyard when they are filled up.

Power transformers and other big metal parts that have an indefinite service life are not replaced in rebuilds, but usually the complete circuit boards are, except in cases where only a few parts need to be changed to make a big musical difference, such as re-biasing a line board to use 6N1P tubes instead of 12AT7 tubes (along with power supply changes too).

Thanks for the kind thoughts about our desire to keep old AVA products running and musically rewarding for as long as possible.  Very few of our old designs ever see the landfill.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[avahifi]

The electronics graveyard is our community recycling center of course, not a hole in my back yard. 

Frank

[turkey]

end user in many cases. In the case of the CFL, the only one getting a helping hand is the power producer. The CFL is an extra-cost burden on the consumer (a hidden tax, if you will) and the guy that
benefited from your expense is the power generating company, of which you still pay the bill, and if their

I saw some info that said that, due to their poor power factor, CFLs don't really save energy for the utility. It's only at the consumer's meter that there is a cost saving. (And you can bet the utilities will be fixing that loophole.)

By the way, Frank recycles all of his electronic stuff from a rebuild. At least this is better then throwing it away.

That's good to hear. He is to be commended for that.

I know of a local repair shop that has bins of old parts sitting in a shed out back. They are too cheap to dispose of it properly, and the owner just figures he will put it off until it becomes somebody else's problem. Unfortunately, some of the parts are Americium sources, so there's going to be hell to pay at some point.

[avahifi]

The lifecycle of our components is essentially as long as you want it to be.  I get many calls from clients that have been happy keeping with the same equipment of ours for over thirty years or so.  When you want to upgrade is your choice, not ours. All we do is never be satisfied with what we can do and alway try to make the equipment better, and ofter the upgrades at rational prices.

Regards,

Frank