[mchuckp]

I've always been a big music buff since I was a kid.  I lost track years ago and got gobbled up into the home theater craze.  I'm rediscovering music and looking to set up a nice 2-channel set up.  Since then, I've sold my 5-channel Aperion set up and getting ready to sell my multichannel amp.  Through all this I have about $4000 to currently spend and plan to continue upgrading as I can afford it down the line but gotta start somewhere and trying to figure out my order of importance.

Through 6 months of research, I'm 99% convinced that I want a pair of Salk SongTowers with a dome tweeter (roughly $2000).  That leaves me with about $2K to spend on supplemental gear.  I spoke to Frank on the phone yesterday and he said the Insight series would be a good match for those speakers.  So I'm looking to add the Insight SL+phono+remote ($1400).  That only leaves me about $600 left.  If money was not a factor, I'd like to get his DAC and amp but that is another $2K.

My current thought is to get an Emotiva UPA-2 2-channel x 125w ($300) and then continue saving up for the DAC then decide later on if I want to upgrade the Emo to Frank's amp (or something else) when funds are available.

Frank's thoughts in my situation in order of importance to get the most out of my set up for sound quality should be speakers/preamp then DAC then amp.

Anyone here disagree with his assessment?  Anyone have anything else I should think about?

BTW, I am going to AK Fest next week and looking forward to hearing Salk and Van Alstine gear.  Dangerous place for a dude with $4K in his pocket!

Thanks,
Mike

[avahifi]

Is the Emotiva a class D switching amplifier?  I suspect it is given the price and the power rating?

If so I would suggest it would not be a good choice in combination with the great Songtowers and our preamp.  I heard a full blown Bel Canto display at the Minnesota Audio Society a couple of night ago, $13,000 worth of all class D switching equipment and was pretty underwhelmed.  I heard the same non-involving sterile sound I have always heard from this technology.  Sound that I quickly just get bored with.

As an alternative, I would suggest you start with an Insight Control Amplifier with remote ($1800) and at the show you will find it very worthwhile to visit our display with Jim Salk on the first floor of the hotel.  We will have some VERY appealing special prices for show visitors.  You will still have all the power you need for the Songtowers.  If you need phono, then its back to the Insight preamp as previously recommended, but again at a special show price that might allow you to consider the Insight 240 amplifier at the same time.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[mchuckp]

Frank, thanks for you help yesterday on the phone and thanks for your thoughts in this thread.  I was hoping there would be some show specials and look forward to hearing yours and Jim's gear very soon and hopefully maybe I can find some pairings that work in my budget.

I looked at your integrated option but the phono is important to me so that is why I've looked at your preamps.  As for the Emotiva, it says on their website that it is a Class A/B as expressed here:
"Discrete, dual differential class AB amplifier topology with active current sources "
There are some very good reviews of it but not saying it is the right match for your gear.  Just trying to find a compromise in overall cost.

Hopefully we can work out something with your show specials.  Talk to you in a week. 

Mike

Is the Emotiva a class D switching amplifier?  I suspect it is given the price and the power rating?

If so I would suggest it would not be a good choice in combination with the great Songtowers and our preamp.  I heard a full blown Bel Canto display at the Minnesota Audio Society a couple of night ago, $13,000 worth of all class D switching equipment and was pretty underwhelmed.  I heard the same non-involving sterile sound I have always heard from this technology.  Sound that I quickly just get bored with.

As an alternative, I would suggest you start with an Insight Control Amplifier with remote ($1800) and at the show you will find it very worthwhile to visit our display with Jim Salk on the first floor of the hotel.  We will have some VERY appealing special prices for show visitors.  You will still have all the power you need for the Songtowers.  If you need phono, then its back to the Insight preamp as previously recommended, but again at a special show price that might allow you to consider the Insight 240 amplifier at the same time.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[Art_Chicago]

Mike,

You are in the same situation that I was about six months ago when I ordered ST's with dome tweeters  .
Ok, you want a phono, but do you have to have a remote for the pre-amp? It may save $300 that you can invest in an AVA amp. I got mine used from Frank, I am more than happy with it. I will upgrade it at some point, but it is HI-FI even if it is 3 year old. My T-8 was bought from ebay, there is of course risk involved ( no AVA warranty), but so it's been fine. All this is to say that it may not be a good idea to save on the power amp having excellent loudspeakers and the preamp.
Good luck with your search.
Art

[JLM]

What are your musical interests?  What are your audio priorties?  What is your listening room and setup options like?

I heard the SongTowers and HT3's at the AKFest last year and thought the SongTowers were by far the better value, but not my cup of tea (even though I'm a huge fan of transmission lines).  Note that I'm an old audio fart (and speaker guy) with set opinions.  So regardless of your speaker choice, starting with the speakers is a good idea (given that the speakers would be well suited to the above interest/priorities/room).

I have a dedicated audio man cave and consider myself thoroughly spoiled by it.  Just being able to listen to what I want, when I want is huge.  Besides, the room is tweaked for audio (right proportions, insulation throughout, dedicated electrical circuits/grounding).  With your budget (not a slam) if you can't get into a room something like this, think hard about headphones.  

After speakers and the room, I'd look next at the source.  IMO vinyl source material is too limited to be viable.  PC audio is the future (if you're ready for it).  For others like me, it not quite "friendly" enough.  Either way, a separate DAC is a popular and often a very cost effective option and the next biggest factor determining how your system will sound.  With $4,000 total to spend, I'd keep the DAC under $700.  

Most should seriously consider room treatments and DEQ.

Amps should be shopped primarily based on your speakers.

Pricing for used equipment is very soft nowadays, so I'd think about prioritizing along those lines if needed.  

Another good way to save money is to buy an Oppo universal player.  For $170 delivered you get a Stereophile Class C rated player that includes a digital volume control.  So if your system is single sourced, you can run without a pre-amp.  Later you can add a DAC and volume controls/pre-amp.  Eventually you could move the Oppo into the TV service and go the PC audio route.

[rahimlee54]

With your budget (not a slam) if you can't get into a room something like this, think hard about headphones.  

If everyone here that didnt have a room like that had headphones 99% of us would have headphones, getting a dedicated listening room is a nice end goal but most cant have the luxury.

[turkey]

With your budget (not a slam) if you can't get into a room something like this, think hard about headphones.  

If everyone here that didnt have a room like that had headphones 99% of us would have headphones, getting a dedicated listening room is a nice end goal but most cant have the luxury.

All of us should have headphones.

Now's the time to get them:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=67400.msg622394#msg622394


Emotiva seems to make fairly good electronics, but if the show prices let you afford both an AVA preamp and amp then bring your checkbook to Detroit!

[turkey]

Another good way to save money is to buy an Oppo universal player.  For $170 delivered you get a Stereophile Class C rated player that includes a digital volume control.  So if your system is single sourced, you can run without a pre-amp.  Later you can add a DAC and volume controls/pre-amp.  Eventually you could move the Oppo into the TV service and go the PC audio route.

I'm not familiar with exactly how they are doing the volume control in this one, but digital volume controls sometimes sound pretty awful.

[martyo]

I have a dedicated audio man cave and consider myself thoroughly spoiled by it.  Just being able to listen to what I want, when I want is huge.  Besides, the room is tweaked for audio (right proportions, insulation throughout, dedicated electrical circuits/grounding).  With your budget (not a slam) if you can't get into a room something like this, think hard about headphones. 

After speakers and the room, I'd look next at the source.  IMO vinyl source material is too limited to be viable.  PC audio is the future (if you're ready for it).  For others like me, it not quite "friendly" enough.  Either way, a separate DAC is a popular and often a very cost effective option and the next biggest factor determining how your system will sound.  With $4,000 total to spend, I'd keep the DAC under $700. 

JLM is a helpful guy, and he gives you his perspective. Room acoustics are very important, but most enjoy music w/o a dedicated room, and you've chosen speakers that are much more placement friendly than many. Many folks like headphones, I sure never have. If you're into vinyl, you are. There are guys around this circle that prefer it, not me, I went digital when I got FULL range speakers. You already know this deal will be done in stages, so the Oppo would make sense until you can get a DAC.(Not as a preamp, as a player until the DAC arrives) There are many positive mentions of the Oppo all over the AudioCircle, even TAS finds many positive's with their products. I'd get the amp after the preamp, then the DAC. But I don't know all the facts. For instance, can you live with your current amp for now?.........

For not a whole lot more (say a total between $5K and 5-1/2K) you should be all set for years of musical enjoyment. Even less if you find some used gear.

BTW, I am going to AK Fest next week and looking forward to hearing Salk and Van Alstine gear.  Dangerous place for a dude with $4K in his pocket!

I think you'll be in the perfect place  aa

Happy Listening



 

[mchuckp]

Just to confirm, you have to get the remote option even if I have a universal remote, right?  I assume the unit has no IR capabilities without the upgrade.  Personally, I think having remote volume control a must.  There is too much variation in sources to have to get up all the time.

Mike,

You are in the same situation that I was about six months ago when I ordered ST's with dome tweeters  .
Ok, you want a phono, but do you have to have a remote for the pre-amp? It may save $300 that you can invest in an AVA amp. I got mine used from Frank, I am more than happy with it. I will upgrade it at some point, but it is HI-FI even if it is 3 year old. My T-8 was bought from ebay, there is of course risk involved ( no AVA warranty), but so it's been fine. All this is to say that it may not be a good idea to save on the power amp having excellent loudspeakers and the preamp.
Good luck with your search.
Art

[oneinthepipe]

Just to confirm, you have to get the remote option even if I have a universal remote, right?  I assume the unit has no IR capabilities without the upgrade.  Personally, I think having remote volume control a must.  There is too much variation in sources to have to get up all the time.

Not sure what you meant, but the remote only controls volume.  Up, down, and mute.  It is a nice option.  Input selections need to be changed manually. 

Here is my advice.  Buy the ST.  The preamp is the heart of the system, so buy an Insight SL with phono and remote.  Look for a used AVA amp from Frank or online.  There have been some great deals recently.  Yesterday or the day before, a 350 EXR sold for 699.00 on ebay.  Then later, pick up a used DAC from Frank or online when you have more money.  Two months ago, I bought a T8 DAC on a'gon for 650.00 including shipping and paypal, and the DAC still has more than two years left on the warranty.   Then, lastly, buy some rigid fiberglass, build a bunch of 6" or thicker acoustic panels, and you'll be set for years.

[mchuckp]

I have pretty broad musical interests and listen to about anything but I mostly listen to what could be categorized as ROCK.  Favorite artists include Phish, Mars Volta, The Beatles, Pink Floyd, Radiohead, Allison Krauss, Sarah McLachlan, Tool, The Cure, Nickel Creek, Dido.  I love recordings that have a lot of subtleties that you can pick up on good gear.  I love a big soundstage and that "I'm there" feeling.

You asked about my room.  That is the tough part.  I'm kinda in limbo right now.  I live in Cincinnati in a house but work 2.5 hrs south in London, KY where I have an apartment.  I'm only home on weekends.  Right now 99% of my music listening is in my KY apartment.  I will be relocating to Salem, OR in the fall and will then set up shop again.  So to tell you about "my room" is pointless as everything is makeshift right now as our Cincy house in on the market and I've cleaned out most my gear there and just using a small pair of Aperion bookshelves with a HSU sub.  I have a potpouri of gear in KY and use headphones pretty much exclusively (Beyer Dynamics DT880's) since I sold my Aperion 5-channel set up recently and only have a pair of Bose 201's that a friend let me borrow. YUCK!  So you can see why I live on headphones!

Once I move, I HOPE to have a "man cave" but have no idea.  My hope is to have a home theater area and use bookshelves and a sub and then have an audio only area.  In the end, I've decided that 2-channel is MOST important to me and I want the best gear I can afford.  I like the SongTowers from what I've read because they have a relatively small footprint, very versitle, well regarded, and easy to drive.  So I feel good that they can work well in about any situation that I throw at them once I move.

I disagree with you that vinyl is too limited.  I assumed that when I got into it a few months ago.  I thought I'd get a turntable and by a handful of records and be like my small SACD collection and that was it.  I've bought tons of stuff and see no end in sight.  I have a few excellent record stores near me for used stuff and some great online retailers for all the new 180g releases.  I don't think a week goes buy that something brand new doesn't come out that I want.  I also have tons of CDs and I use an AppleTV as a media server.  So digital and analog have a home in my house.

To some my $4K budget is a joke and to some they'd drop dead to have that kind of dough to drop on AV gear.  Most people I know thinks it is crazy to spend $200 on a DVD player.  We are a different group here and within our group there are LOTS of different budgets.  For me, my $4K is my starting point in this transition period.  I'm only 36 years old and don't see myself stopping in this hobby.  I just need to figure out the best way for me to get the most out of my money as I wait to be able to afford more "Stuff".

There was a comment on getting an Oppo and curiosity on what else I own.  Here's the breakdown excluding TVs and videogame stuff:
Outlaw 7125 7-channel amp (125wpc) - Currently on Agon for sale
Onkyo 803 AV receiver
JVC AV reciever (old low end using with my cans in KY)
Oppo BD983 bluray player (bluray, CD, SACD, DVD-A)
Toshiba HDA2 HD-DVD player
Rega P1 turntable w glass platter upgrade and Ortofon 2M Blue Cart
Playstation 3 (use for bluray/CD/SACD)
AppleTV (used as a media center)
HSU VTF2mk3 subwoofer
Aperion 422 bookshelf speakers
Beyer Dynamic DT880 headphones

After moving to OR, my hope is to have a 2.1 or 3.1 home theater set up using some bookshelves and my sub along with the Oppo & AppleTV.  Then have a 2-channel set up with my Salk and AVA gear.  Thinking about selling my PS3 and use the money towards another Oppo bluray player.  It is a KILLER player and even if I don't have a TV on my 2-channel set up, it is hard to beat everything else the Oppo can do for $500.  Plus there is talks that we will see audio-only bluray discs down the road.

NOTE: my $4000 budget assumes the sale of my Outlaw amp and I'm getting some lookers and think I'll get it.

Thanks for everyone's comments so far.  I'm excited to see where my musical journey takes me.  It actually scares me sometimes.  

BTW, one thought process I had was to ONLY buy the AVA preamp and continue to just use it with my headphones in KY and hold off on all other gear until I get my house in OR.  THAT IS A PAINFUL NOTION!!!!!!!!

What are your musical interests?  What are your audio priorties?  What is your listening room and setup options like?

I heard the SongTowers and HT3's at the AKFest last year and thought the SongTowers were by far the better value, but not my cup of tea (even though I'm a huge fan of transmission lines).  Note that I'm an old audio fart (and speaker guy) with set opinions.  So regardless of your speaker choice, starting with the speakers is a good idea (given that the speakers would be well suited to the above interest/priorities/room).

I have a dedicated audio man cave and consider myself thoroughly spoiled by it.  Just being able to listen to what I want, when I want is huge.  Besides, the room is tweaked for audio (right proportions, insulation throughout, dedicated electrical circuits/grounding).  With your budget (not a slam) if you can't get into a room something like this, think hard about headphones.  

After speakers and the room, I'd look next at the source.  IMO vinyl source material is too limited to be viable.  PC audio is the future (if you're ready for it).  For others like me, it not quite "friendly" enough.  Either way, a separate DAC is a popular and often a very cost effective option and the next biggest factor determining how your system will sound.  With $4,000 total to spend, I'd keep the DAC under $700.  

Most should seriously consider room treatments and DEQ.

Amps should be shopped primarily based on your speakers.

Pricing for used equipment is very soft nowadays, so I'd think about prioritizing along those lines if needed.  

Another good way to save money is to buy an Oppo universal player.  For $170 delivered you get a Stereophile Class C rated player that includes a digital volume control.  So if your system is single sourced, you can run without a pre-amp.  Later you can add a DAC and volume controls/pre-amp.  Eventually you could move the Oppo into the TV service and go the PC audio route.

[turkey]

Just to confirm, you have to get the remote option even if I have a universal remote, right?  I assume the unit has no IR capabilities without the upgrade.  Personally, I think having remote volume control a must.  There is too much variation in sources to have to get up all the time.

Correct. You are paying the $300 for a remote, a motorized volume pot, and the circuitry to make it all work together. None of that is included without the remote option.

[turkey]

BTW, one thought process I had was to ONLY buy the AVA preamp and continue to just use it with my headphones in KY and hold off on all other gear until I get my house in OR.  THAT IS A PAINFUL NOTION!!!!!!!!

The Insight preamps do a really nice job of driving headphones.

If the show specials are really as good Frank has hinted they are going to be, I think you should buy both the amp and preamp now while the price is low. Then you can decide whether or not to get the speakers now or after you move.

Why don't you bring your headphone with you to the show and see how it sounds?

Now if Jim is running a show special on the STs also...

[martyo]

BTW, one thought process I had was to ONLY buy the AVA preamp and continue to just use it with my headphones in KY and hold off on all other gear until I get my house in OR.  THAT IS A PAINFUL NOTION!!!!!!!!

Boy, that's a lot of patience. You sound much too healthy for this hobby. 

[mchuckp]

BTW, one thought process I had was to ONLY buy the AVA preamp and continue to just use it with my headphones in KY and hold off on all other gear until I get my house in OR.  THAT IS A PAINFUL NOTION!!!!!!!!

Boy, that's a lot of patience. You sound much too healthy for this hobby. 

My good friend who I chat AV with via email daily says the same thing.  He can't believe I've been sitting on this kind of money in the hobby we are in.  If it wasn't for my headphones which I think are wonderful, I honestly don't think I'd survive.  Seriously.  Gettng into vinyl has also helped in this transition period.  I've rediscovered the beauty of going to record stores like when I was younger looking for gems.  CDs and digital downloads has taken away that thrill.

I think if I was SMART, I'd continue to sit on my money until I move then get what is right for my situation.  However, I think I can feel pretty confident on at least some of my purchases already.

[mchuckp]

Great idea on bringing my cans!!!  That is my best point of reference right now.

What I need is for Jim and Frank to have a combo deal at the show and let me throw my money at them! 

BTW, one thought process I had was to ONLY buy the AVA preamp and continue to just use it with my headphones in KY and hold off on all other gear until I get my house in OR.  THAT IS A PAINFUL NOTION!!!!!!!!

The Insight preamps do a really nice job of driving headphones.

If the show specials are really as good Frank has hinted they are going to be, I think you should buy both the amp and preamp now while the price is low. Then you can decide whether or not to get the speakers now or after you move.

Why don't you bring your headphone with you to the show and see how it sounds?

Now if Jim is running a show special on the STs also...

[Rocket]

Hi Mike,

Problem solved!  Forget the remote control on the preamp that will save you $299us.  Add the money to the amplifier and spend an extra $100us more and buy Frank's Insight 240 amplifier.

I've spent a ton of money on this hobby and I can tell you that the amplifier is the second most important component in you system.

Regards

Rod

[turkey]

Hi Mike,

Problem solved!  Forget the remote control on the preamp that will save you $299us.  Add the money to the amplifier and spend an extra $100us more and buy Frank's Insight 240 amplifier.

I've spent a ton of money on this hobby and I can tell you that the amplifier is the second most important component in you system.

Regards

Rod

I'd say it's:

Speakers
Listening room
Preamp
DAC
Amp

If you have the right speakers, the rest all falls into place.

[mchuckp]

I've been intrigued by DACs but have never tried one.  I'm hoping there may be an opportunity at AK Fest to hear a set up with and without a DAC on the same gear to hear it for myself. 

Right now, I'm leaning towards this.  I know I want some Salk speakers and most likely AVA gear (at least in part).  I'm going to go to AK Fest and check it all out with an open mind.  Take in the whole show and talk to as many vendors and other visitors as I can.  Then if I become convinced on gear, I will see if there are any good show specials that push me over the edge.  If so, get that gear and hold out on others until i can afford it.

Or......I call my wife and plead to let me splurge!

If anyone here is going, I'll be easy to find.  I'll be the guy with $4000 pinned to his hat! 

Hi Mike,

Problem solved!  Forget the remote control on the preamp that will save you $299us.  Add the money to the amplifier and spend an extra $100us more and buy Frank's Insight 240 amplifier.

I've spent a ton of money on this hobby and I can tell you that the amplifier is the second most important component in you system.

Regards

Rod

I'd say it's:

Speakers
Listening room
Preamp
DAC
Amp

If you have the right speakers, the rest all falls into place.