Rocket RS1000 better than Salk SongTower QWT???

BradJudy · « **Reply #40 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 11:02 am »

Quote from: arthurs on 23 Apr 2009, 03:49 am

Dumb as I think advertising this was, it's a pretty good jump to accuse them of actually publishing it for that purpose....

Agreed. It's a really lame review site, but there is absolutely nothing that indicates any of the reviewed companies are at all involved with it. It's inappropriate to suggest otherwise IMO.

There are no shortage of websites on the internet that will happily take content from anyone and publish it. After poking around on the site a bit, the format of a small description that is lifted from the company and a photo lifted from the company website seems to be the standard. Clearly the "reviewers" haven't actually tried the products in many cases, making the "reviews" less useful than random Amazon buyer opinions. Do you think the guy ranking washing machines actually had a bunch of them in his house? On the other hand, some of the experts seem to actually be professionals in their fields. Unfortunately, even these experts often just list company text and pictures rather than writing unique content. Clearly not a useful website, but that just makes it average in the wide world of the internet (sadly).

Marbles · « **Reply #41 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 12:47 pm »

It's just really sad that AV123 has fallen so far down that they need to use this "award" to try to pump themselves up.

Things must really really be bad if they are grasping at this straw....

I hope the venders here at AC are doing well in these trying times.

Nuance · « **Reply #42 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 04:23 pm »

Mike lives in Milwaukee? That's 15 miles from me. What are the odds? I'll have to go have a talk with him.

OgOgilby · « **Reply #43 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 04:41 pm »

Quote from: Nuance on 23 Apr 2009, 04:23 pm

Mike lives in Milwaukee? That's 15 miles from me. What are the odds? I'll have to go have a talk with him.

Now that would be entertaining! It it happens, any chance of putting it on You Tube?

Jeff_B · « **Reply #44 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 05:03 pm »

Hey guys,

I'm working with Bestcovery and want to start out by saying thanks for all the feedback, positive or negative. I know that whenever you call a product "the best" it is going to stir up some controversy, especially in a category like home audio where there are a lot of different opinions. A lot of the feedback has been really helpful -- for example, we definitely need to state the price range.

Just to clear a few things up, manufacturers have absolutely zero influence on any of our picks. That would defeat the entire purpose of the site and ensure that we lose all credibility. As for unique content, anytime you see "Why it's best:" or "Why it's a best pick:", it is followed by our own unique text. If you see "Description:" or "Manufacturer's Description", it means that we do not have a unique write-up for that product and are using the manufacturer's description. This is stated in the FAQ, but possibly should be made more clear. You can see on http://bestcovery.com/node/18348?whybest=1&best=8285 that "Why it's best" is listed first and followed by "Manufacturer's Description". We strive to have unique write-ups for all the picks on a list, but sometimes only have them for the first 1 or 2. We're working to ramp this up, and all recently added lists have unique write-ups all around.

The "Why it's best" write-ups are not meant to be taken as a hands-on review, but rather a brief summary of why that product or service was selected as best for that particular list. The site is targeted more towards the average consumer that does not want to spend hours researching products, reading 2-5 page reviews, or searching message boards for recommendations. Additionally, while some people may be willing to spend the time researching an HDTV or AV receiver purchase, they may not want to spend the time when shopping for an electric toothbrush or looking for the best anti-virus program.

Lastly, I know that home audio is a very difficult category and we could use some help making improvements. If anyone is interesting in helping us out, just shoot me a PM.

rahimlee54 · « **Reply #45 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 05:23 pm »

I know if I were not into audio and wanted some decent speakers and was looking at dropping down 3k on a system I would want to read more than manufacturer descriptions, but I got sucked in so I guess I am not a good example for the average joe.

whubbard · « **Reply #46 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 07:06 pm »

Quote from: Jeff_B on 23 Apr 2009, 05:03 pm

Just to clear a few things up, manufacturers have absolutely zero influence on any of our picks. That would defeat the entire purpose of the site and ensure that we lose all credibility.

Yes, but a manufacturer could easily pretend to be an 'expert'. It just seems it is a very easy process to become an 'expert' on the site.

Also, the problem with Audio is that if you have 5 'experts' you will have 5 different best picks (probably), that's just how it goes.

-West

dvenardos · « **Reply #47 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 07:17 pm »

Quote from: whubbard on 23 Apr 2009, 07:06 pm

Also, the problem with Audio is that if you have 5 'experts' you will have 5 different best picks (probably), that's just how it goes.

Agreed. I think reviews, especially user reviews are most helpful by the descriptions of what the user likes or dislikes in both a speaker in general and the speaker being reviewed. With reviews and forum feedback you can really suss out the "qualities" of the speaker and if you know what you like get a good idea of whether or not it is worth giving the speaker a try.

Jeff_B · « **Reply #48 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 07:23 pm »

Quote from: whubbard on 23 Apr 2009, 07:06 pm

Yes, but a manufacturer could easily pretend to be an 'expert'. It just seems it is a very easy process to become an 'expert' on the site.

Anyone can fill out the form to become an expert or submit a best list, but that does not mean they are approved.

As far as user reviews, they are definitely very helpful. This is actually one of the next features we are rolling out -- bringing in user reviews from sites such as Amazon.com (though you won't find many user reviews for high-end audio) and allowing our own users to submit reviews.

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #49 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 08:39 pm »

Quote from: Jeff_B on 23 Apr 2009, 07:23 pm

Anyone can fill out the form to become an expert or submit a best list, but that does not mean they are approved.

As far as user reviews, they are definitely very helpful. This is actually one of the next features we are rolling out -- bringing in user reviews from sites such as Amazon.com (though you won't find many user reviews for high-end audio) and allowing our own users to submit reviews.

Who decides whether or not an applicant is approved as an expert? Are these decision-makers comprised of a panel of established experts? What is the standard for being an expert? Does expert opinion need to based upon a reasonable scientific certainty? Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, 509 U.S. 579 (1993). Or is expert opinion merely the opinion of someone with a certain amount of audio experience, thereby making them an expert and their opinion an expert opinion?

These are the criteria for expert opinion:

1) Empirical testing: the theory or technique must be falsifiable, refutable, and testable;
2) Subjected to peer review and publication;
3) Known or potential error rate and the existence and maintenance of standards concerning its operation; and
4) Whether the theory and technique is generally accepted by a relevant scientific community.

Anyone can have an opinion (whether or not such opinion is trusted) but not anyone can provide a credible expert opinion. Better that you categorize the information as "user reviews" rather than expert reviews or expert picks or whatever, in my opinion. Additionally, relying on manufacturers' descriptions to evaluate the quality of audio equipment is absurd, in my opinion. Does the term "false advertising" ring a bell?

BradJudy · « **Reply #50 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 11:14 pm »

Quote from: Jeff_B on 23 Apr 2009, 05:03 pm

Lastly, I know that home audio is a very difficult category and we could use some help making improvements. If anyone is interesting in helping us out, just shoot me a PM.

You could require that the "experts" have actual hands-on experience with the items they are listing. I didn't see this requirement in the FAQ or site description.

konut · « **Reply #51 on:** 23 Apr 2009, 11:38 pm »

Quote from: Jeff_B on 23 Apr 2009, 05:03 pm

Hey guys,

I'm working with Bestcovery and want to start out by saying thanks for all the feedback, positive or negative. I know that whenever you call a product "the best" it is going to stir up some controversy, especially in a category like home audio where there are a lot of different opinions. A lot of the feedback has been really helpful -- for example, we definitely need to state the price range.

The "Why it's best" write-ups are not meant to be taken as a hands-on review, but rather a brief summary of why that product or service was selected as best for that particular list. The site is targeted more towards the average consumer that does not want to spend hours researching products, reading 2-5 page reviews, or searching message boards for recommendations. Additionally, while some people may be willing to spend the time researching an HDTV or AV receiver purchase, they may not want to spend the time when shopping for an electric toothbrush or looking for the best anti-virus program.

Lastly, I know that home audio is a very difficult category and we could use some help making improvements. If anyone is interesting in helping us out, just shoot me a PM.

Welcome to AC Jeff_B! As you can see, it does not take much to raise the ire of the members here, especially when their favorite brands' quality is called into question! Thanks for putting in context the intended audience for your reviews. To be sure, while each has their strengths and weaknesses, you could not have picked 2 more dissimilar loudspeakers in context of their intended uses. How did the reviewer arrive at his decision to compare these 2 models of speaker? Did he actually listen to them in the same room with the same equipment? Good luck with your new venture!

satfrat · « **Reply #52 on:** 24 Apr 2009, 12:13 am »

Quote from: konut on 23 Apr 2009, 11:38 pm

Quote from: Jeff_B on 23 Apr 2009, 05:03 pm
Hey guys,

I'm working with Bestcovery and want to start out by saying thanks for all the feedback, positive or negative. I know that whenever you call a product "the best" it is going to stir up some controversy, especially in a category like home audio where there are a lot of different opinions. A lot of the feedback has been really helpful -- for example, we definitely need to state the price range.

The "Why it's best" write-ups are not meant to be taken as a hands-on review, but rather a brief summary of why that product or service was selected as best for that particular list. The site is targeted more towards the average consumer that does not want to spend hours researching products, reading 2-5 page reviews, or searching message boards for recommendations. Additionally, while some people may be willing to spend the time researching an HDTV or AV receiver purchase, they may not want to spend the time when shopping for an electric toothbrush or looking for the best anti-virus program.

Lastly, I know that home audio is a very difficult category and we could use some help making improvements. If anyone is interesting in helping us out, just shoot me a PM.

Welcome to AC Jeff_B! As you can see, it does not take much to raise the ire of the members here, especially when their favorite brands' quality is called into question! Thanks for putting in context the intended audience for your reviews. To be sure, while each has their strengths and weaknesses, you could not have picked 2 more dissimilar loudspeakers in context of their intended uses. How did the reviewer arrive at his decision to compare these 2 models of speaker? Did he actually listen to them in the same room with the same equipment? Good luck with your new venture!

Before throwing accolades on Jeff, you might want to reread his post. As I read it, this list of "Best" loudspeakers were basically picked out of a hat from reading audio forum posts and manufacturer's specifications. As I understand it, none of these loudspeakers were ever even listened to! W/O ever having any hands-on time with these loudspeakers how can any "expert" make any kind of valid list of what's the best or even have a valid opinion for that matter? AFAIC, this "best loudspeaker" review is nothing more than your atypical audio forum opinion from someone who knows the "truth" about a product they've never even tried before. Under these hands-off guidelines, this reviewer Mike could easily be any AV123, AudioCircle or any other audio forum "expert" AFAIC.

Cheers,
Robin

konut · « **Reply #53 on:** 24 Apr 2009, 12:30 am »

Quote from: satfrat on 24 Apr 2009, 12:13 am

Before throwing accolades on Jeff, you might want to reread his post. Cheers,
Robin

You might want to reread my post. I did not praise in any way. I welcomed him, thanked him, questioned him, and wished him luck. He is surely going to need it, as you so rightly observed in your observations. A little humility goes a long way, especially when posting to fora on the internet. What a concept!

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #54 on:** 24 Apr 2009, 12:42 am »

Quote from: BradJudy on 23 Apr 2009, 11:14 pm

Quote from: Jeff_B on 23 Apr 2009, 05:03 pm
Lastly, I know that home audio is a very difficult category and we could use some help making improvements. If anyone is interesting in helping us out, just shoot me a PM.

You could require that the "experts" have actual hands-on experience with the items they are listing. I didn't see this requirement in the FAQ or site description.

Even if the "experts" are required to actually listen to a speaker or other component, how would their listening and other experiences be verified? Maybe these are self-proclaimed experts.

Looking at the bestcovery site, this just appears to be a money-making endeavor, in my opinion.

satfrat · « **Reply #55 on:** 24 Apr 2009, 01:01 am »

edit: nevermind

konut · « **Reply #56 on:** 24 Apr 2009, 01:19 am »

Nevermind.

BradJudy · « **Reply #57 on:** 24 Apr 2009, 01:33 am »

Quote from: oneinthepipe on 24 Apr 2009, 12:42 am

Even if the "experts" are required to actually listen to a speaker or other component, how would their listening and other experiences be verified? Maybe these are self-proclaimed experts.

I don't know - how do you verify that a magazine or e-zine reviewer actually listened to the speakers? What about Amazon/Newegg/whatever customer reviews? At a certain point, you either trust when someone says they did something or you don't. The least a website like this can do is to state the requirement of direct experience with the products an "expert" lists and ask "experts" to vouch that they have the required level of product experience. Anyone can lie, so it's hard to ask for concrete verification. Consumers have to decide for themselves how much they trust the source of the review.

At the moment, I feel the website is misleading as it seems to imply a level of knowledge that may not be present, so you either have to reduce the expectation of knowledge, or increase the requirements for content.

Kris · « **Reply #58 on:** 24 Apr 2009, 01:54 am »

How can anyone trust an "expert" who states that the RS1000 "has six midrange drivers"?

Nuance · « **Reply #59 on:** 24 Apr 2009, 04:16 am »

^ lol

Well, I think we've beatin' this one to death folks.

Let's just forget about it and move on, eh?