Unexpected fun from my Piccolo build....

tubesforever · « **on:** 20 Apr 2009, 06:42 am »

As I mentioned I am using ECIR38's idea of connection blocks to accomplish easy cartridge loading options. Here are a couple pics of the blocks.

Just a screwdriver gets you whatever loading options you require.

Now for the fun.....

With my VanDenHul MC 10 the book calls for 400 ohm loading. I have selected 180R, 220R, 270R, 330R, 390R, 500R.

As an example I recorded Amanda McBroom's Dreaming album today and when I listen to her voice through my system her voice has less sibilance at 390R than at 270R or 330R. However for recording purposes I could select 330R and get my CDR to sound exactly like my audio playback quality.

I could actually pick the level of sibiliance and upper air I wanted to hear by selecting within the resistance range.

DG, Philips, London and others disregarded the RIAA curve and followed their own drum beat. Now I can seemingly recorrect some of the frequency EQ imbalance I hear in these recordings by simply changing the resistance load of the cartridge.

This is some serious fun both for listening and for recording!

You can listen and change this up on the fly. You can hear it as you go. Take a dead sounding London and you will hear a life like sparkle. Take a bright DG and bring it into a warmer and fuller sounding recording.

This is simply too much fun!

I doubt my technique is as good as a proper EQ set up in a phono section. However I am getting a lot more grins from my collection this last couple of weeks.

Jim can you opine on what I am hearing?

reuben · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Apr 2009, 04:13 pm »

You're not alone! My set up is an ATOC9MLll, cinemag SUT, and a Bugle.

When I load the transformer secondary, there is a shift in tone quality. It doesn't take much, either - going from a 10K resistor to 13K (in parallel with the 47K already in the Bugle) changes the sound from 'mean' to 'lean'. There is enough of a difference right there to compensate for dry vs. humid air.

Regards,
Tom

nameci · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Apr 2009, 06:50 pm »

In my experience with my Piccolo, quality of loading resistors plays a huge role in it's sound.

I originally built the stock Piccolo and noticed that all my cartridges started to sound same when I use Piccolo(Shelter 501 MKII, Shelter 901, Benz Glider, Benz Ruby, AT OC9, Koetsu Rosewood Sig., etc). I have posted this comment on both this forum and VA. Since then, I started to modify my Piccolo with premium parts(including AuriCaps, Buggle Power Supply, and Caddock MK132 resistors for loading).

One of the biggest surprise was when I installed Caddock MK132 resistors for loading. All of the sudden, Piccolo sounds completely different than stock(darker back ground, elimination of little hum it had, more transparent, etc). I initially thought my ears/brain were trying to justify the cost of upgrades.

Once Piccolo settled down with the break in from all the modifications, any little changes including changing loading value as well as even changing of the tone arm cable(let alone different cartridges) will show up thru my system now. I would highly recommend best resistors(like Caddock or Vishay Bulk Foil) for the cartridge loading.

tubesforever · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 Apr 2009, 06:35 am »

Thanks Reuben and Nameci....this cements the value of this topic for me. Loading within a tight range for a cartridge does indeed change its flavor and allows you to improve the overall sonics. Nameci, I agree that chosing the right component pieces makes a big overall contribution to the sound. I too like the Vishay bulk foil resistors. I have not tried the Caddock resistors.

I suspected I might be in for some great fun. Actually I heard the Cornet 2 for the first time at ScottRT's home. He was kind enough to let me sit in for a couple days and hear his C2 in person. He also demonstrated his CineMag SUT with resistor switching on the fly for his medium output Benz Ace cartridge.

I was blown away that changing resistance made that much of a change in sibilance, bass response, upper air or mid range detail. It was great fun to be able to dial in the sound of his cartridge in this way.

I am very pleased with my Piccolo. It is ultra silent and the PRP resistors are simply stunning. They sound so similar to the Vishay bulk foils that it boggles my mind.

Cheers!

Jim can you let us know your take on the discussion?

BillB · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 Apr 2009, 11:45 am »

An idea to make it even easier for you:

Take a DIP socket and solder it to the board (or most likely an auxillary board), then you can take your favorite resistor setups, solder them into another DIP socket and just plug and play.

The idea is not really mine, my Audiocontrol crossover in my car (back when I was into car audio) featured DIP chips like this to change crossover frequency...I think it is a brilliant idea.

You could mount it in a way where you could take a small cover off to change out settings.

vinylkid58 · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 May 2009, 06:25 pm »

Quote from: tubesforever on 21 Apr 2009, 06:35 am

I am very pleased with my Piccolo. It is ultra silent and the PRP resistors are simply stunning. They sound so similar to the Vishay bulk foils that it boggles my mind.

Thanks for the tip. I'll give them a try in my Piccolo and maybe my phono as well.

Nice build BTW.

Jeff

bluesky · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 May 2009, 06:12 am »

I am trying to get a handle on resistors for some Hagtech projects I am in the process of building up for a friend of mine who is a big vinyl fan. I have read numerous posts recommending various brands of resistors and have used Kiwames in the build so far and had not given resistors much thought as I was under the impression that these components would not have a major effect on sonics. However on reading these latest posts it appears that people have found there are sonic gains to be made by careful choice of resistors and I would like to hear of people's recommendations.

I recently bought some PRP's for a solid state amp, based largely on Michael Percy's recommendation, but have found the measured tolerance of these to vary widely as they had tolerances around the 20% mark, something one expects with electros but not with supposed high quality resistors, especially so when suppliers state the tolerance of PRP's are typically within 0.1%. I also note that others have mentioned mislabelling of PRP's. This has lead me to be wary of PRP's and it makes me question their quality control with such a range of issues being raised by a variety of people on audio forums. One last issue, which may be insignificant, but there are obvious variations in the red paint colour with the batch of PRP's I bought and, whilst I acknowledge this may be irrelevant, PRP's are the only brand of resistor I have come across with such a variation in paint colour. I find this puzzling, but again it makes me wonder about quality control issues particularly given the recent history of mislabelling and such a wide variation in value tolerances with the batch of PRP's I have been supplied with recently. At this stage I cannot comment on the PRP's sonics but would not recommend them until their quality control improves significantly and I would be very interested to hear if anyone else has come across these problems as well.

The resistors that I am now considering are Kiwames, Holcos, RN60's, Caddock 132's and, if I had the money, Vishay S102's (plus Mills wirewounds for the 5 watt resistor). I would appreciate recommendations for resistors throughout the Hagtech range of components.

Cheers

Bluesky

tubesforever · « **Reply #7 on:** 3 May 2009, 04:05 pm »

From my personal experience here are the upgraded resistors and how they have sounded in my own system.

First, in the past the Vishay Dale RN-60 resistors were always a go to piece. They had a clarity in the midrange. Loads of space and decent frequency response.

Then came the S102 nudes. These are on a different level. Now you can hear the differerence in decay between the side walls, ceiling and rear of the stage. Its in the focus that I find the Vishay S102 nudes are overachievers. You can hear the minute detail that you hear live.

Kiwami 2 watt resistors have a more smokey sound stage. They are a seductive piece with a little more emphasis on the bass and mid bass. I find their loss of clarity in the midrange is not a good thing for my personal tastes overall. However they are a less analytical sounding option for a system that might lean on the bright side.

The PRP resistors are excellent. They have a lot of the RN-60 / S102 clarity and focus but without being overly analytical. They do not over accentuate the bass and mid bass which allows you to really turn up the volume without disappointment. They are priced really well, so if you have to buy a few more to get them matched up to spec you are still saving money over all.

I think the PRP will be my go to resistor from here on out. I have absolutely no concerns with them what so ever. Just measure them and match them up before you solder them to the board.

Caddocks are half the price of the S102 nudes but 10 times the price of the PRP. I think they sound identical to the PRP in those spots where I have tried them. They are expensive at 10 times the price.

BTW in most of my builds I have put Vishay S102 resistors in the direct signal pathway and used Kiwami in all the less critical areas. I am wondering if using all PRP might actually be the best way to go. They do bear a full evaluation on my next build.

I highly recommend the MRA 12 watt Mills wire wounds for the 5w heater step down chores. These are better than sand resistors by a long shot.

In my systems the most impressive sonic upgrades has been to use Russian FT-1, FT-2 and FT-3 teflon caps to bypass the signal and B+ supply caps. Think clarity and superb dynamics and you will get a flavor of what I am hearing.

Drums, piano, guitar and percussion sound so life like with the teflons in place that I can highly recommend them to anyone and they are cheap. They are also becoming more scarce and will probably dry up all together. So if you want teflons makes sure to buy them from the ebay vendor of your choice SOON.

Wait another 6 months to a year and you may be forced to pay 175 dollars a cap for Vcap, Marsh or Auricap designed teflons. They are still under 10 dollars each on ebay while their quantities last.

Cheers!

bluesky · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 May 2009, 11:17 am »

Hi Tubes

Many thanks for your recommendations on resistors, it is much appreciated.

I would like to think that perhaps the PRP's I bought some time ago may just have been a bad batch for whatever reason. I am prepared to give them another try and see how I go with these.

Thanks again,

Bluesky

flocchini · « **Reply #9 on:** 6 May 2009, 01:30 am »

Tubes:

This is a great thread. It inspired me to get my Piccolo finished.

I will be using PRP resistors for everything except the 10 ohm sites. There I will use Caddocks because I can find them at 1%. My PRP 10 ohms didn't meet specs. I plan to build some resistor loading packs using a modified IC socket configuration. I'll use Caddocks on one and PRPs on the other for my Shelter II (range 70-120 ohms or 80-150 ohms).

I'm going to use .1 PIOs bypassed with .01 Teflons and decided to go with Elna Simlic IIs for my electrolytics. I have heard very good things about these and the price makes it worth the experiment.

It will be powered by a 24V battery. I have the charger and batteries already. I think everything will be in a copper box. If I can figure out how to do pixs I'll post when done.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread

Bob

bluesky · « **Reply #10 on:** 6 May 2009, 02:43 am »

Given that we are chatting about various parts one of the areas I would like to explore is the use of the various power supply caps as well as the many small electros used in the Piccolo.

All I have done to date is to install four small 0.1uF Dynamicaps in the Piccolo. To be honest the only reason for this choice was that I had them on hand and they seemed to fit better than some other brands in my parts stash which were much larger in size.

There are the three 10,000uF and either three or five 47uF caps used in the Clarinet and Cornet builds and I would be interested to hear any opinions on what is best to use in these positions.

Bluesky

tubesforever · « **Reply #11 on:** 6 May 2009, 06:51 am »

Bluesky,

The Hagerman specified 10,000 uf caps are just fine. I think these were Nichicons from my recollection. They fit the board smartly and they sound great. These act as an LC tank for the Shottke Diodes. Basically they are there to supply current to the heater filiments and choke off any noise from the diodes.

If you are after world class sonics, then you should try the Panasonic THSA and ED/EE caps like I did. These are silky smooth and grainless. They have an esr so low they are the only challenger to the Rubicon Black Gates which are hard to find in these values.

I am using the Panasonic ED caps for the 47uf 450v chores. Again its the noise floor and grain free performance I enjoy the most from these electrolytics. These are being replaced with EE caps and they are said to measure even better.

These are cheap too! You can buy these from Digikey.

The TSHA caps required I solder a lead to the twist terminal and then solder this through the circuit board. They took a lot of extra time in my build, but they do sound very elegant and very commanding.

bigfishe · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 May 2009, 09:28 pm »

Are the large oil caps better then the Blackgates?
In the 100uf caps

tubesforever · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Jun 2009, 08:11 am »

Large oil caps....

Mostly these are found in high voltage requirements. The 10,000 uf H+ caps are low voltage....I think around 16 v if I remember right.

The 47uf B+ supply caps could be configured in oil run caps. You need to hit 450 v to be on the safe side of things.

The ED or EE caps will present your tubes with a great deal lower esr and that means a quieter noise floor. Oil caps will not always be better.

Quiet is a good thing.

I bypass the ED or EE 47uf 450 v caps with a Teflon 0.10uf 600 v cap and I get clarity, dynamics, and still have an ultra quiet noise floor. BTW some don't like the sound of Teflon. If that's the case, try some 0.10uf 400 or 600 volt PIO caps and see if you like the results.

This is DIY, and many roads lead to Rome.

bigfishe · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Jun 2009, 08:25 pm »

HEY Tubes
I see two black wires and one blue where the DC power connect should be
Whats the polarity?

tubesforever · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Jun 2009, 08:51 pm »

I used some 5 nines pure teflon coated wire for this. Kimber 8TFC is great for this.

Blue is hot, the blacks are grounds. This is how the solder in plug connector is configured.

Both black leads go to the same negative connector location on my connector terminal. The Bugle power supply does provide both +15 and - 15 volts for the op amp requirements of the Bugle phono stage. I don't require the -15 volt connection for powering the Piccolo.

Cheers!

bigfishe · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Jun 2009, 10:27 pm »

I wanted to use the 100uf oil caps for the piccolo instead of the black gates
Oil, film and foil is better then electrolytics right?

tubesforever · « **Reply #17 on:** 10 Jun 2009, 07:10 am »

DIY demands that someone try an oil cap for a Piccolo.

The measured signal to noise ratio on a Black Gate is 160 db down. The FK 100uf Black Gate caps are the quietest caps on the earth. They have a frequency response so good many folks don't bypass these with a film cap, but I would do that or use a teflon cap to get the highs clear as a bell.

I would love to hear an oil cap Piccolo.

hagtech · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 Jun 2009, 06:52 pm »

Depends where you put the oil cap. Part of the PICCOLO power supply design requires these caps to be very small physically, hiding behind the shields. Big caps will expose them and their signal (unwanted) to the sensitive circuitry of the front end. We don't want this electrical coupling. Ideally, the power supply would have been on a different board and placed far away. But aesthetic and practical terms brought them together. As much as you like oil caps, I don't think they will fit in well here.

jh

hagtech · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Jun 2009, 06:56 pm »

Quote

Oil, film and foil is better then electrolytics right?

Depends on the application. Sometimes you need the higher impedance of electrolytics. Be careful not to generalize here. However, for audio signal coupling (specifically), then you have a good rule of thumb.

jh