[Duane867]

Hello all,
New member, 1st post, and it is a DUZY !
I realize this is an audio forum but you fellas seem to be geniuses in figuring out electronics trouble.
I have got a GOOD ONE for you.
I am an avid reef aquarium keeper. Have been for many many years now.
I am currently operating 2 x 250 watt electronic metal halide ballasts that can operate on 90-260 volts @ 50/60 hertz.
They are operating two 250 watt 20K ( kelvin=color temp which in this case=blue ) double ended metal halide bulbs.
The system is plugged in to a circuit all to its self. I had a friend of mine who is a certified electrician run romex to the box and added a 15 amp home series (?) SquareD breaker to be used specifically for my lighting.
The ballasts are brand new, the power cords, and lamp cords are brand new, the bulbs are brand new.
Now before that you know what I am working with, before I continue and explain the problem I need to tell you that this problem occurs using any manufacturers ballasts. Be them magnetic or electronic, as well as any manufacturers bulbs, be them DE or SE type. ( doubled ended or single ended. ) I hav eliterally dropped over $1250.00 in different ballast types and bulbs trying to rectify this problem.

Now on to the problem......
Late last summer I noticed a pretty fair color shift in my bulbs. Usually this means it is time to change the bulbs out.
So I ordered new lamps. Got them in. Hooked them up and it was the same color the old bulb had shifted to, only randomly bouncing from a nice blue that they are supposed to be to purple /white/yellow. ( IE ugly as hell and extremely detrimental to my corals well being.  I was concerned and called the manufacturer of the bulbs.
They told me to make sure no forced air was being blown over the bulbs surface or color shifting would occur.( that's BS because for 15 years I have ran my set ups like that with no problems at all ) So I turned off all fans. Nope still shifting colors. So I called them back and they sent me out a new set. Same thing.
Then they said their bulbs were made to run on M80 mag. ballasts. ( had been using an ARO 250w electronic with no problems for 5 plus years mind you )
SO I purchased a pair of M80 mag ballasts made by advance transformers. Hooked them up.... SAME PROBLEM. 
Tried several more bulb types, several more ballast types all doing the same thing.
SO recently I had a buddy wire up a new 15 amp circuit with absolutely nothing on it but the lamps.
Still does it. Ballast manufactures tell me a funky sine wave provided by the power company will do that because it would make the ballasts overdrive while trying to correct the signal ?
I think that's a bunch of BS. Not that I may be receiving a funky sine wave but ballasts essentially only put out what is put in right ? They don't change sine do they ? all they change is amp, and voltage out put to supply the bulbs right ?

SO I call the power company.
They come out and check the box and the lines out side. The neutrals weren't grounded to the ground bar via jumpers. No big deal, I fixed that but it didnt fix the problem.
The grounds are all good to go, both on the water pipes and the driven ground.  He did notice that the box is a 200 amp box but power being supplied to it by them was only 120 amp.
SO they told me last Monday they would be out this week ( OOPS ! didn't show ) to replace it with a 200 amp service to match the box.
The power lines a long the pol at the street are weathered badly with insulation slothing off and need replaced as well.
I though maybe line voltage was dropping a tad so I bought a Tripp lite line conditioner. it takes unstable fluctuations form the line ( like low or high voltage flux) and produces computer grade, 6amp max out put @ 120v nominal.  SO I had high hopes.. but...... Nope still doing it.

My question is.... What will cause this? Distorted sine ? I know its not the wiring in my home because I ran a super HD power cord to my neighbors house ( bout 25 feet away ) and the bulbs shifted color on his as well. 

I need to solve this problem fast fellas. I am here as a last resort because I have asked and tried every thing else. A friend of mine told me you audio guys were frigg'n genius in figuring our electronic problems so I figured what have I got to lose ? You'll either tell me to get frucked, or help right  ? LOL!
But I seriously need to fix this problem guys.  I have about $10,000 in live coral slowly shifting colors and bleaching away. I run a little live coral salse shop out of my basement and my profits, and investments are suffering so bad its making me sick to my stomach as well.

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated !

Thank you !
Duane

[whubbard]

Hi Duane,
It seems you have gone through and eliminated all possible causes to no avail. My suggestion seems silly even to myself, but it's the last thing I can think of. I would take the lamp and bring it far away form your house and local grid, and plug it in elsewhere. See if this affects the change in lighting...

My second suggestion would be to go an get a 12V battery and a 12V to 120V DC-AC Inverter. If it is still happening then, and still happening away from your house, then it's the lamp/bulb.

Sorry I can't be of more use.

-West

[Duane867]

You know... I did forget to mention that I tried it at the monster in laws house 5 blocks away and it did not do it there.

[Bill A]

Have you tried running the lights from the other leg of the power comming into the house?  I know you used your neighbors outlet, but that still may have been on the same 120 leg that feeds your house.

Check the voltage that feeds the lamps with a multimeter.  Check it during lamp start up and while the lamps are running.  I would be curious to know what the reading is.

Try moving the breaker to another position in the power panel that uses the other leg.

From what I read about the lamps low voltage, as well as low temperature, will cause problems like this.  Also, since you took the setup to a different neighborhood and it worked fine, leads me to believe that the main power source to your home is faulty.  Tree limbs rubbing and squirrles chewing on the lines are common problems.

Please post back any other attempts at a fix, and the final solution if there is one.

Bill A

[Scott F.]

Duane,

Metal Halide and other HID (as in high pressure sodium) lights are horrible for maintaining their color rendering. Though they last a fairly long time, the color shift (as you know first hand) comes early and only gets more yellow/orange as time progresses.

My suggestion would be to change lighting technology. Fluorescent technology has evolved over the old T-12's dramatically. You can go with a T-5 lamp that has an 85CRI and up to 65K. My personal favorite for indoor lighting is the 85/41K. That combination gives a very natural, broad spectrum color spread. As up increase the Kelvin towards the 65K range you will get more blue.

The thing you have to take into account between the two technologies is the very poor color rendering of an HID. Even though you use a 60K MH, it will equate to somewhere near that 85/41Kf fluorescent I mentioned simply because the fluorescent covers more of the color spectrum.

Here is the best news. The florescent will actually pay for itself because it will use less energy plus the maintenance (changing lamps) will be less frequent. Fluorescent lamps will maintain 85-90% of their light output even out to the point of failure (well beyond 10,000 hours). The color shift of the fluorescent at end of light is minimal. Here is the topper, a typical T-5 lamp will run you less than $8 (often times less) compared to your $40 MH. One last thing, no doubt your HID ballasts have started to hum loudly. You won't hear that with a fluorescent.

Now, the fixture I would suggest would be a high bay multi-lamp T-5 with a polished stainless reflector. I'm not sure I would go with a white reflector as the white will cause a slight color shift and working on reef aquariums, color rendering is crucial. The number of lamps required will be dependent on the mounting height of the fixtures and the light absorption of the surrounding walls, floor (aquarium) and furnishings. This is something I wouldn't be able determine over this forum.

Here is a link to a manufacturer who makes high bay, multi-lamp fixtures. I've specified and installed hundreds of these over the years.
http://www.usenergysciences.com/high_bay.htm
It just so happens the sales rep I deal with here in Missouri covers Ohio. His name is Rich Keuss. His info can be found under the Contact tab at the website. If you want to give him a call, I will let him know to make sure he walks you through proper fixture selection. The reason I should call is since he normally only sells to big contractors and distribution warehouses (read=thousands of fixtures at a time), he might not respond to a two to four fixture order.

I realize some of the information I gave you will only add to your confusion. Do a quick Google search for things like CRI or "color rendering index" and also "color temperature". The big manufacturers typically have a nice lighting education section on their website where they explain in detail the relationships of CRI and temperature. You can take that info then look at their fluorescent and HID offerings to gauge the quality of what you have compared to what I suggested.

Hope that helps,
Scott

[Duane867]

The color shift didn't come at all for 15 years. Save for when the bulbs were bad.
New bulbs, new ballasts, new isolated circuit. I have a T5 fixture as well.  Does the same damn thing. I just figured I would leave that out of the conversation since it would be covered by the halide question.  In my experience thus far T5's are not all they are cracked up to be. You can keep "certain" stony corals under them but they will not support all. They are nothing more then glorified PCs when used over  a tall tank as well. Individual reflectors or not. I have tried it. 
Tried moving the breaker already, that was the 1st thing my buddy tried. Did it again though.
Now if some one could just tell me if the sine wave wold cause this .... 

[Scott F.]

Interesting, especially since you already have tried T-5s. At this point i would suspect power quality. Find a local electrician who has a Fluke 41B or 43B power quality analyzer. That will give you a good read on exactly what is going on with your mains voltage. If it does end up being high order harmonics or phase issues you will likely have to install a balanced power, isolation transformer for your lighting circuit. That should correct any phasing and noise issues.

[*Scotty*]

 Duane867,You might find out how many people you are sharing your transformer with and how old it is. The power company can bring out a strip chart recorder and check the the line for voltage fluctuation for 24 to 48 hrs. A failing transformer could also contribute to waveform distortion and you should also check for DC offset on the AC line. You need to find out what has changed in or near your neighborhood recently. If you complain loud enough you can probably get them to put in a separate transformer just for your service. I got this done when I   lived in rural Ohio.
Scotty

[Christof]

 

[Duane867]

Scott F ,

Yeah man I have a 6 x 48" T5 Ho fixture right now over a 75g tank right beside the tank with the halides over it.
Believe me when I say i have explored all options in available lighting forms LOL! I also have VHO, and PC.
How expensive are those balanced power, isolation transformers ? Are they sold under any other more common less defining names?
Are they readily available to the public or is that one of those things I will have to pay an electrician to buy and install for me ? That is some thing to look in to for sure if it is indeed a financially viable option.
Sorry to seem snappy in some of my answers. I am just so frustrated with this whole thing it isn't funny LOL!
Every body and their brother tells me that what is happening isnt possible, or it is normal. Thats the most frustrating part.
Being in this business and hobby for the number of years that I have been now I know exactly how HID lighting behaves. I have also seen the advances that have been made over the years that have specifically addressed color shifting and flicker issues. That simple doesn't happen any more on electronic ballasts. The technology used is shared by just about all manufacturers now. The real differences are so much what is used anymore but how the case is designed for heat dispersion.  They are all high power factor, super efficient ballasts, that are able to run on 50-60 hertz and 90-240 VAC.   
God I'm doing it again ! sorry ! LOL!
I am just feel so whipped by this problem it isn't funny ya know what I mean.
 

*Scotty*,
They replaced a transformer that kept blowing at the end of the block here about a year and a half ago but they did not replace the old wiring before or after.
The wires are freak'n shot man. I mean you can see pieces falling off day by day from the insulation, and in spots its so bad it looks like caked mud falling off a rope.
I would have had a lot more answers to some of these questions by now if the damn engineer for Duke energy would have called me back last week like they said he would.
They were also supposed to come out and replace the 120 amp feed with a 200 amp feed but never did either.  I suppose I was just lucky with the fella that came out the 1st time being such a nice guy and eager to help LOL ! You can bet your ass though I will be the squeaky wheel that gets the oil before its all said and done. I have dropped to much money on my own now trying to remedy this, and in the process completely ruled out in house issues and then some I feel. Now its time for them to step up and take care of business.
I pay for a level of quality, service and trust. Now its time to get the quality I am supposed to, call on that trust, and count on their service.

We will see how well that goes though LOL!  Probably not well. Given today's market they are all cheaping out horribly and skimping every where possible.
SOOOooo my expectations are not high right now.


Not for nothing though.. but I really feel I made the right decision coming to an audio forum like this.
You guys are just great and full of helpful information !  I truly do appreciate it fellas !

[Scott F.]

Duane,

Yes there are a number of different manufacturers that make balanced, isolation transformers. Companies like Plitron make a uncased torrid and you can find big industrial models from Xantech on eBay. These can run from as little as $100 used up to $300-$500 depending on the size/VA rating (less shipping).

Before you jump at something like this you really need to figure out what (or IF) the issue is power quality so you aren't throwing good money after bad. If it is, then you need to figure out if the issue is internal (filter pumps, motors, whatever) or if it is riding in on the mains. If its on the mains, you can point right back at your service provider and force them to fix it for free.

The first step is getting an electrician who can diagnose power quality issues as we can only guess at what the issue might be. It will likely take going to one of your large commercial electrical contractors to find someone that can diagnose power quality issues so be prepared for a 2-3 hour service call at around $100/hr. Typically the small residential contractors don't invest the $3-$4K for the type of diagnostic equipment needed for this.

[Duane867]

What would they need to test it ?
I have seen hand held flukes that can read sine before.
They look like a scientific calculator.

Would they need something on the order of an oscilloscope ?

[Scott F.]

Here are the links to the two Fluke meters I mentioned.

Fluke 41B

Fluke 43B

Either of these should do the job in the hands of a properly trained service technician. I would have them check phasing first and then check harmonics out to the limit of the meter (51st harmonic). I you have any major spikes in the harmonics especially below [say] the 21st, these might be contributing to the mal-performance of your light fixtures.

In a high resolution audio system, the smallest of noises are completely audible. Some of the noise can come from DC riding the AC mains, some can be phase shifts and others can be higher order harmonic spikes. In the case of harmonics, I've seen them take out computers, copy machines, anything with micro-controllers that regulate a bigger electrical process. I have no reason to think any of these issues couldn't contribute to a color shift in light output providing the power quality issue is large enough.

Just make sure the service tech that you schedule specializes in power quality issues and has (minimally) at least one of these two meters. He should be able to get to the bottom of the issue.

[Duane867]

Damn your one knowledgeable dude Sott F. !
I spoke with the power company today and some how they now have no idea what I am talking about and they never had me scheduled for another visit let alone to replace the line.
I just about went ape. I tell ya what ! I was immediately put on hold for 35 minutes before I even go tto speak with a live person. THEN they put me on hold 30 seconds later for 10 more minutes. THEN.. they told me I needed to talk to some one in another department. Yup you guessed it 20 more minute hold only this is the best part !!!! After an HOUR on hold the skank hung up on me ! I when I called back and they told me the above I was like "Are you kidding me ? This is a joke right?"  I said " well then some one was blowing smoke up my ass real good then on your end huh? Because not only did they schedule my home for the upgrade but they also told me they left a message for an engineer who was supposedly going to call me back to help diagnose the problem. Never heard form him either."
I asked to speak with a supervisor. Yeah that guy was a true dumb ass. Told me their electric was meant to be used for residential only use and what I was trying to do was industrial and that's what the problem was because they provide them with a higher quality supply.
I didn't say a word ! I just asked to speak with HIS superior. They got on the phone and I told him he needed to start firing people and restaffing with people who care about their job and who are at least educated enough to understand that the electric they are selling is the same in residential or commercial environments before it enters the box.
Dude I lost it after that !
I was so peeved I went on for 10 minutes describing to him how I felt about their service, as well as their customer service.

I was like  " yeah and you should be prorating my bill for the hassle as well ! "   Then I apologized for my rant, and he put some stank on get'n em' out after that.
End result they will be here to morrow to replace the line, and an engineer with proper testing equipment will be here as well to test for harmonics and the whole 9.
If they don't I swear to God I will drive to their main office tomorrow with a bag of recipes in one hand and a bag of dead coral in the other LOL !

[Scott F.]

Just be sure to look over the techs shoulder as he is flipping through the different harmonics and also as he checks the sine wave. Ask lots of questions when you see something that potentially looks out of line. Force him to explain the settings and readings you two are seeing. Don't be bashful since you've got a quasi attentive tech there. Be prepared though for the tech to minimize any issues you happen to find (since he works for the power company). Take notes on the harmonic readings and if the sine wave is skewed or off phase be sure to note it. In short, be a pest.

Now, this is only supposition but (if I read you correctly) you said that you took one of your fixtures to a neighbors house and you got the proper color rendering out of your fixture. I suspect that you and the tech may find that the issue lies within your facility. I'm leaning towards something that draws quite a few amps like your filter pump or maybe a refrigerator that is dumping noise back onto your mains and causing the problems. You may want to systematically turn things off while the tech has his meter connected and try to eliminate internal issues.

Good luck 

[Duane867]

Thank you very much for the advice !

But.. you read incorrectly good sir !
I got the same results when plugged up to the neighbors power supply.