[mmakshak]

  I don't want to upset the applecart here, but has anyone heard these products.  BAAS had a demonstration at Jason Serinus' house that was amazing.  Ted(Synergistic Research) used one of their items for open fireplace acoustic problems.  I would say the main thing that was noticed was taking out his products made the stage flat-rather than 3 dimensional.  When you used all of the Synergistic stuff(cables, Tesla conditioner, and Acoustic Art), the climaxes were similiar to what I hear in horn speakers(that's a good thing).  Now, if he could just capture the high frequency purity that the Nordost Odins had(This may not be possible.  I've heard this twice, and if I listened to digital only, this is what I would aim for)...  In both cases(the other was at APL), the sound was lightly balanced, and in favor of the highs.

[ted_b]

Quite a few comments in these two threads:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65703.0

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=61258.0

I've heard them many times and like the results, set up properly of course..  I'll be demoing them in my room very soon, both as a full system, and as subsets (bass station, etc).

[mmakshak]

  Very interesting, Ted_b.  I posted a reply in the second one.  When did science go from describing what we observe and theorizing as to why, to imposing something on us?  I must have missed the transition.

[youngho]

  Very interesting, Ted_b.  I posted a reply in the second one.  When did science go from describing what we observe and theorizing as to why, to imposing something on us?  I must have missed the transition.

Science didn't "go" from the first to the second, nor is science simply what you describe (after all, superstition also involves describing events and providing explanations why, whether it's the myth of Echo  explaining echoes or bad mojo/jinx/curse/black cat/etc explaining our misfortunes). It's people who act, whether to ignore or impose, and this has been the case since at least the beginning of recorded history.

[orthobiz]

How many posts before this winds up in the InterGalacticWasteBin?

[nathanm]

But a fireplace is filled with scraps of wood, so how could that be an acoustic problem?  Not to mention that poker thing, and the little shovel.  Sounds like acoustic treatment to me.

[bpape]

Solid wood is a bad aborber.   The stone cavity of a fireplace can absolutely be an issue,

Bryan

[mmakshak]

  Youngho, that theory has to be tested over and over to see if holds true.  It is not a one-time description.  If there is something going on that current theory doesn't describe accurately, then it's time for a new theory-not an imposition from the old(and no longer true) theory.  I'm not sure that is what is going on in these discussions.  I think the old theory holds true for low bass, but maybe there is more to sound than low bass.

[youngho]

Mmakshak, I don't understand what you're trying to say. I was simply suggesting that you blame people, not science.

I have no idea what your reference to "old theory" (WRT "low bass") means, but I can't imagine that anyone without profound high- and mid-frequency range hearing loss could possibly suggest that there isn't "more to sound than low bass." I believe that this is what is referred to as "a straw man argument." Perhaps I am mistaken. I don't know what is going on in this discussion, either. Anyway, I have no interest in sparking acrimony. I just wanted to suggest that people, not science, are to blame in discussions like this.

Cheers, and happy listening

(edited to remove potentially inflammatory sentences)

[mmakshak]

Youngho, I think the basis for the attacks on other acoustic products is that they don't have the physical size to affect the very lowest frequencies(or something similar).  Unfortunately, that leaves many(including well-healed) audiophiles without any recourse when it comes to acoustical problems.  A lot of these people will gladly pay $500 for a power cord, but are told that unless they put something very big into their listening room, they cannot affect the acoustics of that room.  Do you think that is true?

[Ethan Winer]

If there is something going on that current theory doesn't describe accurately, then it's time for a new theory-not an imposition from the old(and no longer true) theory.

Yes, but current knowledge is quite complete on the relation between wavelength and physical size. This stuff has been understood fully - and proven repeatedly - for a century or more. Now, I agree that new theories are always welcome, but the promoter of a new theory has to offer at least some evidence. Suggesting that a new theory for improving the bass response in a room might be possible is not the same as actually demonstrating it or explaining it!

maybe there is more to sound than low bass.

There is more - there's also midrange and treble. Seriously, sound has also been understood fully since long before you or I were born. Again, evidence is needed, not just saying there may be more to it. What more might there be? Please be very specific!

A lot of these people will gladly pay $500 for a power cord, but are told that unless they put something very big into their listening room, they cannot affect the acoustics of that room.

Some problems have no solution. If spouse or other concerns prevents someone from treating their room properly, then they will never enjoy all that their speakers and other gear are capable of. It's really that simple. No amount of wishing otherwise will make it so.

--Ethan

[mmakshak]

  A great number of people can't put the mass into their listening rooms to get proper low bass response.  Are you saying that nothing can be done with acoustics if that is the case?  I'm sure you are not, but that is the impression that you give off.  For instance, you say that the ART system cannot have an effect, yet I can assure you that it does.  As an acoustician, would you tell me what is going on with it that brings about this effect?  Also, what are your ideas on subjective bass improvement brought about by 8th Nerve rectangles?  Surely, you must have an idea?  Are some frequencies above the bass level affected that gives this subjective observation?  Answers to these questions would be much more accurate than just saying it's not physically possible.

[ted_b]

Ethan is a pro's pro, and a straight shooter, but owns Realtraps, a competitor of 8th Nerve, and will not likely respond to requests to comment and/or critique the competition.  Conflicting interests get involved.  I own lots of Ethan's products and have not heard the AR system in my room yet, but hearing them in shows I can say that they (ART) do affect a room's acoustics way more than one would imagine such a small physical presence/footprint would.  I suspect it's a ringing, or set of ringings  , that counters some inherent room resonance (have no idea what I'm talking about)? 

[Ethan Winer]

A great number of people can't put the mass into their listening rooms to get proper low bass response.  Are you saying that nothing can be done with acoustics if that is the case?

Well, they probably won't be able to do much for low frequency problems, but thinner materials can definitely help at mid and high frequencies. And simple speaker and seating placement changes can help optimize the LF response even without treatment.

Note that the issue is not so much mass but size. A 12x10x8 foot bedroom has about 600 square feet of reflecting surface, and a large living room has much more. Many "normal size" legitimate acoustic panels are 2x4, or 8 square feet. So it's easy to do the math and see that smaller devices will not do much unless you have an awful lot of them. A few small panels at the first reflection points can help imaging, but that too is mostly a mid/high frequency issue. There's simply no way for a few very small devices to affect the bass response in an audible way. Even if it were possible, it could be easy measured and graphed. I'm not aware of any data showing the effectiveness of the ART balls, but I'll be glad to look at and comment on any data you're aware of and can link to.

what are your ideas on subjective bass improvement brought about by 8th Nerve rectangles?

I've not heard or tested those so I can't comment. The only "too small" treatment I ever tested, besides my own experiments to find the minimum useful size for my company's Planter Bass Traps, are the Cathedral panels. Four of those did nothing at all in the small room I tested them in. Test results below.

If those little ART balls actually do something audible, it would be at higher frequencies related to their size. I also suspect that if they do anything audible it has to be the addition of sympathetic resonance, which is never desirable in a room. A listening room aims to be neutral, so the resonance and other musical characteristics in the recording are faithfully reproduced without adding new content. For example, when recording in a studio the engineers always close the lid if a piano is in the room, and put blankets over snare drums, and so forth. Otherwise the sound of those resonances will be added to everything that is recorded. Ted says he heard a difference with the ART balls, and I believe him, so the most logical explanation is they ring and resonate at some frequency.

--Ethan

[Housteau]

For instance, you say that the ART system cannot have an effect, yet I can assure you that it does. 

I was just curious if any benchmark measurements were done both before and after those treatments were in place.  I had done that with my room before following Ethan's promotion of broadband bass absorption and taking care of typical reflection point issues, etc.  I also did follow up measurements after the treatments were in place and further ones as I progressed from there adding more.

Now, I am not in the camp that believes that it is possible to measure everything.  The fact is that the measurements did show improvements, but the difference I experienced did not seem reflected in the measurements.  They showed what appeared to be small changes on paper that in reality translated into major improvements to what was heard.

[Rob Babcock]

For the record, I've owned & used 8th Nerve products and found that they helped, but no one is a competitor any longer- it's my understanding that the company is defunct.

[Ethan Winer]

The fact is that the measurements did show improvements, but the difference I experienced did not seem reflected in the measurements. They showed what appeared to be small changes on paper that in reality translated into major improvements to what was heard.

It depends on what you measure, and also how the data is presented. Speaker makers often use large vertical divisions to hide the true extent of the frequency response deviations and make the line seem flatter than usual. They also use 1/3 octave averaging for the same reason. So at 20 dB per division a 5 dB change seems very minor. Where at 1 dB per division even 1 dB is very easy to notice. Likewise, when measuring a room you need to disable averaging to see the true extent of the nulls, and how much they improve after adding bass traps. Further, half the benefit of room treatment is a reduction in decay times, and that is not shown at all on a plain response graph.

As far as I'm aware, there is nothing that can be heard but not measured. There are only a few things that constitute all audio parameters! Those are frequency response, distortion, noise, and time-based effects like ringing and jitter and tape wow. Yes there are subsets, such as hum or crackles under noise. And there are many types of distortion ranging from "not a big deal" to very irritating. But those are the four main classes of audio specs, and they can all be measured using modern test gear to orders of magnitude below what anyone could ever hear.

--Ethan

[satfrat]

Ethan is a pro's pro, and a straight shooter, but owns Realtraps, a competitor of 8th Nerve, and will not likely respond to requests to comment and/or critique the competition.  Conflicting interests get involved. 

OK Ted, that's good to know.

I hope to hear the Synergistic Research ART System at some future date @ Zybars home so I can form my own opinion,,, like I did when I bought 8th Nerve Adapt Rectangles, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech Room Tuning Panels, ASC Cinema panels, GIK Table Traps and oh yes, a couple Real Traps Soffit Stands.


Cheers,
Robin

[ted_b]

Robin,
Being that you own some Realtraps, and are a veteran here,  I assume you already know Ethan.  My comments about him were directed to mmakshak, who, just one post previous, had asked Ethan to comment on the 8th Nerve products.

Rob,
Good point.  Ethan, you are hereby permitted to sling mud.    (just kidding)

[satfrat]

Robin,
Being that you own some Realtraps, and are a veteran here,  I assume you already know Ethan.  My comments about him were directed to mmakshak, who, just one post previous, had asked Ethan to comment on the 8th Nerve products.

Rob,
Good point.  Ethan, you are hereby permitted to sling mud.    (just kidding)

OK Ted, that's also good to know.

Cheers,
Robin