[John Kotches]

Here's the ground rules for comparison...

• Cost differential is not a concern, space constraints are
• Bass is fully managed, with music crossover @ 65Hz, and movie crossover @ 80Hz.
• Overall goal is 7 (yes seven) identical speakers
• Space is a constraint, with an ideal depth < 15" to allow adequate spacing to wall.
• Overall SPLs will not hit reference levels for movies[/list:u]
  
  How well would the 626 hold up against its larger brethren in this environment?  Is the FST option available on 626 (I don't see it listed)?
  
  FWIW, I'm currently using Soundline Audio, which uses BG drivers -- which are physically larger than my space accomodates well.
  
  Thanks in advance for all comments.
  
  
  
  Regards,

[Woodsea]

http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9834&highlight=626+rm1
This may help.

[John Kotches]

Thanks for the pointer.

The SPLs aren't problematic in my smaller room.  Personally I find 100dB is subjectively louder in my relatively small room (roughly 21'x12'x7) than in larger rooms.  Typical listening is at -10dB below reference on films, and -15 to -20dB for music (same scale).

The subwoofer will handle all of the last 2 octaves, so the extension is not needed.  I don't want to deal with  the placement issues that come into place for the last 2 octaves for more than one speaker.

The stand mount for the 626s is enticing, since I can easily adjust the height in comparison to either of the RM-1A or RM-2A.

The remaining question becomes is the FST  option out there for 626?


Cheers,

[Marbles]

FST is available on 626R's

[wshuff]

John,

The FST is an option on the 626R.

I think you hit on one of the most important points with your last sentence.  There have been several posts by people who have found that the RM1 is too short to get the mid panel and tweeter at the proper level, so the speakers end up getting tilted back.  The RM2 is taller so it is less of a problem, but there have still been people who found that even that taller speaker needed to be tilted.  While the 626R doesn't have the low end of either of the floorstanders, that's not a problem for you.  What you get in exchange is the ability to put the speaker at the proper height for your ears and listening position.

I use 626Rs (spiral ribbon tweeter) and LRC in a seven channel setup with Def Techs BP10s and BP8s at the sides and rear (plus dual SV subs).  I don't listen to movies at reference, but usually anywhere from -10db to -15db, calibrated to 75db, with music in the same range that you use.  My room is larger than yours at 24.5 X 18.5 X 8.5.  Initially I thought that I would eventually upgrade the RM2 for the fronts while moving the 626Rs to the rear.  As it turns out, I have been more than satisfied with what the 626Rs do that I haven't felt the need.  The 626Rs have more than enough output for what I want to do, but since I haven't ever had those other speakers in my house, I can't really say how they would compare.  Crossing over the subs, though, I always felt like I'd be paying for capability that I wasn't using while giving up the ability to get the speaker positioned at the correct height.

[John Casler]

How well would the 626 hold up against its larger brethren in this environment?  Is the FST option ...

Hi John,

I was going to write a detailed response but I see that in Woodsea's reference to the Harmonic Discord thread, I did just that.

I think the comparison in your set up would be primarily based on the additional neopanels of the RM2.

Secondarily the baffle width of the RM2 is greater than the 626R which might have a slight imaging advantage for the 626R.

If it was for my system, I would go with one of the following set ups:

Two channel music preference: Pair RM30C mains, LRC center, 626R side surrounds, 626R rear surrounds (if you are using a front projection system that will allow for a RM30C vertically this is a prefered option for the center)

HT/Multichannel Music preference: 626R mains. LRC center, 626R side surrounds, 626R rear surrounds

If you can place all the speakers in a vertical orientation then the 7, 626Rs would offer the best over all option/value/performance.

Although you mention you are looking for a speaker with a 15" depth (626Rs are 13.5") they also have a rear port.  How much space will you have behind the side and rear surrounds?  That may determine if the 626R will be the best candidate.

As far as volume levels, much is dependant on room size, but you should be able to achieve 90db sustained and 95+ db levels peaks with clear effortless performance, with only two speakers.  With 7, you will no doubt be well covered.

[John Kotches]

See, this is what I'm looking for... intelligent discussion of the various options.

John,

I use an FPTV setup, with an acoustically transparent screen from Screen Research.  Other than a 1dB attenuation, it is very nearly flat from 20-20kHz.  Vertical orientation is not a problem, and is preferred.   Every CC I've worked with has not had identical dispersion, which I find highly distracting.   I reviewed a matched quintet of speakers recently and don't see myself turning back after that experience.

What I don't want is a mismatched grouping of speakers.   I use Meridian's Trifield on stereo sources so the solution I want starts with a  matching trio across the front.   Anything else is a compromise I don't want to make.

Unless the ports on the 626 become active > 65Hz (I doubt it) it isn't particularly relevant.  Sides will be ~18" from the wall, with rears ~24" from the wall.   Mains will also be ~24" from the wall.  That's as close to equidistant as I can get, given the physical constraints of my room.

The room is optimized around multi-channel reproduction, with about a 50% duty cycle between MC music and movies.


FYI, I'm looking for less than 15" depth

Cheers,

[John Casler]

What I don't want is a mismatched grouping of speakers. I use Meridian's Trifield on stereo sources so the solution I want starts with a matching trio across the front. Anything else is a compromise I don't want to make.

I think then, that the 626R might be the perfect speaker for you.  In the case of a screen in front of the speaker, the rear port is a better choice.

I agree that "if and when possible", all equal speakers, all equally placed, will yield the best result.

With the Trifield and the TriNaural, "exact match" speakers is always going to maximize result.

[John Kotches]

Now all I have to do is hear them someplace  

Brian, if you're lurking in this thread maybe you could sneak in some 626s to CES so that we can hear some of your other work

Cheers,

[rkapadia@ROOP]

John,

Out of curiosity, why 65Hz crossover for music?

I'd also recommend the 626R; as you mention budget permits for some leeway you may want to consider Soundcoating and an Auricap upgrade.  The added smoothness and slightly more detail of the caps really help to balance out ribbon sound.

Regards,

[John Kotches]

Roop,

THere are 2 reasons for the 65Hz crossover....

First:  
I experimented with 80Hz and 65 Hz and I found that subjectively I preferred 65 Hz for music.  FOr movies,  I don't want my mains to be subjected to high SPLs < 80Hz.


Second:
Because I can do this with my processor

Cheers,

[rkapadia@ROOP]

"I do it because I can"...  

I'm sorry, I think there's a misunderstanding.  I meant to ask why no lower than 65 for music?  Is this a current speaker limitation thing, processor thing, or just preference thing?

Regards,

[John Kotches]

Roop,

In all seriousness, my current speakers are rear ported, and I want to stay above the frequency where the port output dominates so that I can place them closer to the wall.  I need the space, unfortunately  That's why I have the depth limitation....

In addition, 65Hz is a safe frequency for all speakers, since they are -3dB @ 35Hz (Front L/R), 45 Hz (CC), 40 Hz (Surrounds).  This gives me sufficient guardband @ 24dB/octave to make sure port output doesn't come into play.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

[GeorgeK]

I'm interested in your experiences with the Soundline speakers. The B-G ribbons have such an excellent reputation, but Soundline only uses the 50", not 75" version. How is their sound? What is the vertical dispersion? Are they super-finicky about placement and orientation?

Thanks,

[Dunedain]

John:  Since you are running the speakers "small" and also not going to be playing them at extreme volumes,
you can just go with 626r's all the way around and be fine.  If you want to spiff it up even more, you can add in
the FST upgrade on all of them and get the boost in output, sound quality and dispersion; although it's certainly
not necessary.  Either way, you'll have a very nice setup that will meet your size requirements.  

[John Kotches]

George,

The more I use the Soundlines, the more I like them.  I'm not sure exactly what Soundline is doing with the ribbons, but they are (IMO) getting the best sound out of the RD-50s I've yet heard.

The sound is quite neutral, and free from overt coloration.  The dynamics are punchy and I never feel as though I'm reaching the limitations of the panel.

Dispersion is well controlled, and the integration between the drivers is outstanding.  The big give away is that the apparent image size changes as you move between the ribbon and the dynamic driver.  I think Brian's crossing over @ 166Hz would make this slightly less of an issue.

The beauty of the design of the Soundlines IMO is that there is no crossover above 250Hz.  The Midrange ribbon comes awfully close in the VMPS', leaving only the final octave to the tweeter (FST or Spiral Ribbon).

The Soundlines are relatively flexible for placement, although at their best, they need about 4' from the wall (2' from the back of the woofer cabinet).   Dispersion is nice and when tuned in "just so" they throw a tremendously wide soundstage whether in 2 or 5.1 channels.

Vertical dispersion is practically non-existent, and horizontal is well controlled, which is exactly how you want a planar to be.

Cheers,

[John Kotches]

Dunedain,

I'm looking at the FST, I'm going to be talking to Brian about it at CES.

I wish they had more info up on the website about the FST though!  As it is, there's minimal information.

Cheers,

[Brian Cheney]

We will show RM30's in a trinaural configuration (switchable back to 2 channel, with or without the 215 Subwoofers) at CES.  I will bring a 626 for a crude comparison.

[Enrico]

John Kotches, how big is the sweet spot on the Soundlines? How good is the sound, including especially the imaging and soundstaging, outside the sweet spot?

[John Kotches]

Enrico,

Well understand that the only reason I'm looking to replace my Soundlines is cabinet depth.  The woofer cabinet is 24" for the SL-2s, 18" for the SL-3s  and that's causing some issues for me in going to 6.1/7.1.

The sweet spot is larger than my old Acoustats were, which is to say I don't need a vise grip to keep my head in one spot.   As far as I can comfortably lean to either side (maybe 12-15" each way) is how wide the sweet spot is before the imaging collapses.  This is with the speakers at ~8.5' distance, and ~ 6.5' of seperation.

For listeners in the comfy seats to either seat of the sweet spot they get good performance, but imaging is as expected, which is to say compromised somewhat.   This has much to do with my rooms limited width as with anything else though.

Soundstage width will be similarly compromised.  On center, I can't tell you for certain how much beyond the speakers the speakers perform, as it is, my current setup is the best I've had, and that appears to be about 15 degrees or so beyond the speakers, with nice wraparound effects.

I've heard the RM40s + the 626 in a center channel configuration, and truly loved what I heard.  The RM-40s are way too big for my room though  The RM-30/RM-1/RM-2/626 are all good candidates.  There are a few reasons for wanting to go 7x626R+FST.  

First, I want to have identical speakers all around.  I listen to a lot of stereo recordings processed with Meridian's Trifield, which essentially demands an identical trio across the front.  

Second, I also listen to a lot of surround music on both DVD-A and SA-CD.   Once again, my personal experience suggests that the only valid "timbre match" is an identical speaker.  The SL-2/SL-3 combo comes very close using the same driver above 250Hz on all of them.

Third, I use an acoustically transparent screen... Side note, I prefer the term Acoustically Neutral.  It's from Screen Research, and unlike the Stewart Microperf, requires no EQ to maintain flat response.  There's a uniform ~1dB attenuation across the 20-20K audio band.  I want all drivers for the center channel to be above the bottom of the screen so that I don't have some drivers covered, and others uncovered.  This will help maintain the frequency response of the speaker.  With the screen up, I just have to tweak the CC level down by 1dB

Hope that helps

Cheers,