[ArthurDent]

While reading Frank's Lab post on preamps & amps, input-output sensitivity/gain/etc a particular statement caught my eye. "The volume control is designed to provide functional use from off to nearly full on, a bad combination of equipment will allow only 1/4 of .... ". Last Dec Wayner generated a thread called "How loud do you play your AVA gear", to which a number of us posted. Remembering the thread comments a question came to mind.

Fairly consistently posters noted the volume control when listening was in the 8:00-9:00 +/- area (with 7:00 being off), max setting being about 11:00-12:00 before the visits from the local constabulary, and there appears to be a wide spread of equipment (particularly speakers) in play. Now the signal source counts as I've noted that to achieve the same output level from my cassette tape deck as CDP the setting runs to the 10:00 +/- for conversational listening levels vs 8:00 for CDP. TT not up & running yet so can't speak to that. I'm just curious as to why there seems to be a discrepancy between between the stated design functional use range and the user's stated use range.

I have exactly '0' complaints or disappointments with my AVA gear, and have actually put together 2 systems in the last year and a half based on it after 20 years of staying away from the hobby. Frank & crew are always there when assistance is needed. Their support & continued engineering improvements via upgrades to existing lines puts them in what I think is a fairly small group of high class manufacturers. So the purpose of the question is to educate myself a little better on what I need to consider compatibility-wise as time goes on with my intent to try various pieces of other well regarded gear in those systems. Is it simply a matter of sensitivity matching, or is there more to it ? Any & all enlightenment is appreciated.

[oneinthepipe]

The volume control setting, in my uneducated opinion, is related to too many factors to permit any objective comparison between systems.  For example, before I treated my room, I couldn't turn the volume control up very much.  After installing room treatments, I turned the volume up much higher to achieve a similar sense of loudness.  I didn't use an SPL meter to measure loudness, however.  Nevertheless, with less efficient speakers in my system, I turn the volume up more.  The sources also have different "loudness" levels.

[Wayner]

I wonder how many people have their mute button pushed in (if they own AVA preamp)? I do not. I believe it is provided to bring some normal behavior to the volume control when there are eventful combinations of amplifiers and speakers, who's combination could cause nose bleeds at the 10 o'clock position. The mute, in those circumstances, normalizes the volume control to a more rational behavior, while also lowering the noise floor for those folks that have high gain amps with very efficient speakers.

Wayner 

[Tone Depth]

I hardly ever use my mute (low gain) button on my AVA EC chassis preamp (older style). 

I seem to be perfectly happy using the 7:00 to 9:00 range for background to normal to critical listening with my reasonably efficient speakers.  If, for some reason, I need more precision in matching sound levels, for example, I will use the mute button to expand the effective range of the volume control.

I must have some irrational belief that using the mute button will somehow degrade the sound quality.  Rationally, it shouldn't affect sound quality either way.  Maybe I should spend some more time listening with/out the mute button.

[Dan Kolton]

I do use my mute button for certain sources, but generally, I do not.  In this regard, I was very surprised to note that it had very little effect at settings below 9 or 10 o'clock on my Insight, but a much more noticeable effect on my Ultra.  Turns out that the difference is due to the difference in VC pots between remote and standard (Insight has remote, but Ultra doesn't).

[ArthurDent]

Thanks guys. Every little bit helps.   

oip - without question room configuration is a major factor; size, layout, treatments or lack there-of. Rightly or wrongly I got the impression from the 'how loud' posts there was a fair variety of sizes, & configurations. Both of my setups seem to exhibit the same basic characteristics, though one room is 10'x11', the other 14'x25', the small semi-bright & cluttered, the larger w/o treatments less so, but definitely not dead. Main factor on those is probably listening position. The smaller is office, seating 3-5' from speakers, the larger is music area, seating 7-8'. Though perceived loudness isn't that much different seated at desk 20' away.

W,TD,DK - would I be wrong in assuming you are referring to the mute button on the remote ? Other older non-AVA pieces I've had did have a mute on the unit itself, but none on my T-8/Ultra that I see. At that, if it suppresses the level rather than cutting it out completely I've never had the volume loud enough to experience that. I'll have to go back and reread my info sheet. I use the remote mute button to cut-off the sound for answering the tele, when listening to the Cassette or Tuner from far end of the room.

I'm going to have to sit down and read all those old AudioBasics I've downloaded too. I'd guess there's more info there.

Thanks again for your input. 

[DustyC]

In a perfect setup for a typical user, the highest volume level they needed would be when the volume control is set at minimum attenuation (no insertion loss), that way the whole range of the control is available. Most setups (mine included) there is way too much gain for CD (9:00 to 9:30 on a clock face). I find myself throwing away most of the CD player's output only to amplify it again in the line stage of the preamp. Using the mute button is one way to adjust the range since most mutes knock off 20db of gain in the circut (or they silence the signal). If your line stage has 30db of gain then you can reduce it to just 10db with the mute. Some preamps have a switch that varies the amount of gain in the circut so you can tailor the amount (10,15,20, 25 db) to get max range adjustment of the volume control.

[Dan Kolton]

Sorry, I picked up "Mute Button" from the previous posts, and I think what we all meant was "Low Gain".  There is no "Mute Button" on either the Insight or Ultra pre-amp, but I use "EPL" for that since nothing is connected to it.  I also use the "Mute" button on the remote for the Insight.  Muteing has nothing to do with reducing the gain unless you want to say it reduces it to zero, but so does the power switch when set to "Off".

[ArthurDent]

DC/DK - appreciate the info. Just went back and re-read the Ultra manual, and it does talk about the 'Mute' button, but is referring to the 'Low Gain' button. So the 'mute' discusson was on point, simply matter of terms & my ignorance. So the volume question is not simply a matter of matching sensitivities with regards to the preamp & amp, but matching or adjusting the gain between the pre/amp & speakers. Part of which I got from Frank's post, but didn't realize the magnitude of that section. Do now. More study required, not that I expect to understand it all, just enough so that I hopefully don't damage anything for lack of consideration.

Part of why I had discounted the gain factor, without examining the numbers involved, was I didn't consider the Song Towers at 88dB to be 'high efficiency' as I understood the term. So I guess using simple terms, not only is Frank's gear built like a refined tank, they're built to push either an F1 Ferrari or the Queen Mary with equal ease. It's a matter of adjustments.

[Tone Depth]

Hi Arthur,

Just for clarification, the button labeled "mute" on older EC chassis is labeled "low gain" on the newer EC chassis, and the effect is similar if not identical.  I think I've read in past, info that the relative output level of an AVA preamp can be further optimized for your system including amplifier and speakers, by changing the value of a resistor(s).  If you are only using part of your volume control range and want to be able to use more of it, you might be able to get it changed.

If your preamp is in a newer SL chassis you probably don't have that "low gain" button, and if you desire more useful range from your volume control, I encourage emailing or calling AVA for further info.

Keep in mind that if you are going to try and balance source levels, that some sources such as phono cartridges have an essentially fixed output level, and others like CDPs and tape decks have adjustable level outputs.  So if you were going to optimize, adjust first to your fixed source outputs such as a phono cartridge, and then use output level adjustments on the other equipment such as CDPs and tape decks.

Frank's equipment designs are great and also flexible!

[Wayner]

That was my mistake also. I'm used to the older EC faceplate which simply says "mute" or "off". I also have a new one, never noticed it said "low gain", and I worked on the graphics.....

In short order, I'll ge able to give myself birthday presents and wonder what I got!

Wayner