[Mad DOg]

First off, I want to thank HarleyMYK for opening up his home to HiFiTommy, JohnCasler, F-100 and myself for an afternoon of music, gear and food!

Secondly, I'd like to thank HarleyMYK's lovely wife, Cheryl for tolerating us wacky audio enthusiast types!

It was great to finally meet F-100 and HiFiTommy. It was great seeing HarleyMYK again! And as always, it was nice to hang with the muscle man, John Casler. I made sure to avoid his "sweat spot" since it didn't appear that he was wearing his Depends!    

We listened to some VMPS 626Rs, VMPS RM1s, Norh Mini 9s, and Onix Reference 1 speakers and sampled some of Wayne's Bolder cables in the demo pack...Compared the Bolder digital cable with the Onix Grand Master digital cable. I'll let HarleyMYK list the rest of the gear, list room dimensions and will be back later to share my thoughts on what I heard...

It was great fun for sure!

[HarleyMYK]

Well, I am pretty tired after today, so I will post more tomorrow.  But I did want to get up these pictures of the guys and the speakers:

Back Row:Mad DOg, John, Tommy; Front Row:HarleyMYK and F-100

The Under $2000 Speaker Challengers:

RM 1, 626R, Ref-1, Mini 9

[Sa-dono]

Glad to hear everyone had a great time. Wish I had been able to make it.

John Casler. I made sure to avoid his "sweat spot" since it didn't appear that he was wearing his Depends!    

Sorry I wasn't there to make new jokes about John Hopefully he wasn't too busy getting called by his "booty calls"

Looking forward to your guys' impressions!

[hifitommy]

i gotta thank MYK (i dont think he's a mick) for the hospitality and opportunity to share this learning experience with some wild and crazy guys.

thanx also to cheryl and leah AND the dawgs for their tolerance.  

i was the only one to bring vinyl, it was GOOOOOD.  

thanx again to the dog, f, john, an MYK for a nice afternoon.    ;^)

...regards...tr

[hectic1]

Very cool guys. I will be anxious to see what you all thought of each of the speakers as well as the cables that you had there...

[HarleyMYK]

First, I want to thank everyone for coming over and bringing what they brought.  In L.A. getting anywhere can be an adventure!  Also, I may have forgotten to offer you all drinks, as the refrigerator was still stuffed with beers, waters, and soft drinks when it was over.  If I forgot to offer you all drinks, then my apologies to you.

I think this listening session showed how dependant room and gear are on a how a speaker sounds.  My living-room system is a work in progress, which I had hoped would be further along at this point.  The gear is rather modest: TrippLite Power Conditioner, CD-1 (actually a QDS-15), DIY Cable Superlative interconnects, nOrh ACA preamp with RIAA phono stage, home built Belden 89259 interconnect with locking connectors, 100 watt ART SLA 1 (waiting for Le Amp IIs), Monster CX-2 bi-wire speaker cables.  Also a Thorens TD-160 Super with Grace arm and cartridge. My living room, while not treated is quite good (28 x 22 x 9, carpeted with some cutouts for stairs, fireplace, and windows).  This allowed the speakers to be well away from the walls.  There is some echo due to all the drywall.  John arranged a number of his foam sheets around the sides of the room.  We had a triangle of about 8 or 9 feet between the speakers and the listeners.  We moved the furniture around to have a second sweet spot beyond the speaker’s convergence at about 11 feet away from the midpoint of the speakers.  We used a pair of db meters to keep the spl around 84 between tracks and speakers.

We each played one track on each speaker.  CDs used included the following:
Jimmy Buffet, Far Side of the World
Ray Montford, Shed Your Skin
Bela Flek & Flektones, Flight of the Cosmic Hippo
Badi Assad, Chameleon
Ry Cooder, Jazz (HiFi Tommy started his testing with a Linda Ronstadt CD)

I really enjoyed all of these cuts.

We had the speakers shown above as well as the Bolder Audition pack with the Mensa dio.  The plan was to do speaker testing for the first half and the Bolder testing for the second half with just one of the speakers.

All of the following are just my opinions of the speakers with this particular setup and in this particular room.  Your mileage will almost certainly vary.

The RM1 was up first.  I thought the strong points were warmth, openness, and fullness with very good detail.  Low point was imaging.  It had the most bass of any speaker we tested and I thought sounded very good in the room.

Next was the 626R with FST.  I thought these looked really nice in Cherry Flambé.  I was surprised that these sounded congested compared to the RM1.  They did image significantly better than the RM1, though.

Third were the mini 9’s from nOrh.  These sounded even more congested.  The guys that got to my house early, heard the mini 9’s in their home in my bedroom HT, and I think all would agree that they sounded great there.  John has heard them on his system and we both thought they were excellent in his system and his room.  Mad DOg suggested that they may need an amp with more power.  What ever it was, they did not work as well as for me as the other speakers in this setup.

Last, but certainly not least were the Onix Reference 1s.  These speakers really liked the room and gear.  They had lots of bass (although no subwoofer slam), great detail, full imaging, sweet midrange.  As much as the mini 9’s hated the setup, the Ref 1’s liked it.  I think Mad DOg said they sounded better in this room with my gear than at his house with his gear.  Go figure!

All the above listening was done with the CD-1 (QDS-15) with Sylvania tubes and without the Mensa dio.  

Keeping the Reference 1’s connected; we then switched back and forth on the ACA between the analog output of the CD-1 and the Mensa dio.  Adding in the cable factor, we were comparing the Mensa dio with cryo’d M80 interconnect and cryo’d M80 digital to the CD-1 dac with DIY Superlatives.  We had to turn the Mensa dio down a notch on the ACA when we did the switch, since it was a little louder than the CD-1.  Both had their advantages.  I liked the Mensa dio a little better.  I thought it was more detailed and dynamic.  Others thought the opposite – that the Mensa had a better midrange, but the CD-1 was a little more detailed.  

We swapped out the stock power cord on the CD-1 for the Bolder Nitro power cable.  This is a fairly light power cable, and made a great difference on the CD-1 with the Reference 1.  Mad DOg noted blacker blacks and better bass handling.  I then put the a Bolder Type 1 power cord on the ACA and a Bolder Type 2 Power cord on the amp.  This again improved the sound yielding even tighter bass.  Finally, we listened to the Mensa dio with Mad DOg’s Onix digital cable going from the CD-1 to the dio and with all the Bolder power cords in place and the Onix Reference 1 speakers.  The Onix digital cable is the heaviest and most expensive looking cable I have personally touched.  It also sounded good!  I thought this was probably the best sound of the day.  We then swapped back to the RM 1s and I thought they also sounded really good.

By this point I was totally burned out.  Critical listening is hard work.  Maybe I needed a couple of beers (or whatever) to lighten up a bit.  My wife came in and said all the speakers would be OK in the living room.  Her visual favorite, expectedly, was the little Reference 1.

As everyone was packing up, Tom put on the LP Osamu, by Osamu Kitajima.  A very special LP to be sure.  One of best parts of the afternoon for me was hearing some great cuts that I would not have found without the input of everyone else.  As I write this I am enjoying Ray Montford, Shed Your Skin – courtesy of Mad DOg.

In closing, I want to restate that all of the speakers that we listened to are winners in their price range.  To me the RM 1s and especially the Reference 1’s just sounded better in this room and with this gear.  Regardless, I have never gone over to a friend or relatives house and thought their stereo sounded anywhere near as good as anything we heard yesterday.  We are indeed lucky and in a very stratified community as far as musical reproduction goes.

[bmed]

Hi all,

What were the stands used with the 626R's and their height?

Thanks,

Brad

[HarleyMYK]

F-100 (on floor) Mad DOg and John in the listening gallery.  Note the foam on the left and the dual spl meters on the sofa.



John hooks up the 626R while F-100 looks on.



F-100 checks on the mini 9s, while HiFiTommy listens.


The nOrh's sounded better in their usual setup.


Look close and you will see the true mad dog (AKA Buster) at the bottom of the photo.

[John Casler]

Hi all,

What were the stands used with the 626R's and their height?

Thanks,

Brad

Hi Brad,

The stands are made by Skylan.  The come in 24" and 20" heights.

I just became a dealer and have posted to the Market place the web address (URL) there.

They work well with Di Cappos, 626Rs and a host of other Larger Bookshelf Speakers.

At this meet I hadn't yet filled them with sand so they weren't as inert and stable as they are today (went to Lowes)

[Woodsea]

Yo Buff dude,
What are your impressions of the speakers and what were the effects of component synergy?
Thanks,
Eric

[jackman]

Posts like this one remind me as to why I love this site.  Great work guys.  Please post more details (the rest of you) on what you liked and disliked about the gear.  

Also, that room is really cool.  I love the Axe's on the walls.  Is that a Vox guitar?  As much as I like audiogear, I love guitars!  Any stiff with a couple bucks or a credit card can buy expensive gear, but to play beautiful music on a guitar you have to earn it with hours of practice.  I wish I could have joined you guys!

Jck

[markC]

Please elaborate on the speaks involved. I am espesially interested in the RM1's, as I'm thinking about a kit. How do they stack up against the 626's?

[Rob Babcock]

I second that suggestion.  Particularly perplexing is your findings the 626r's sounded congested compared to the RM1s.  I think this makes sense, since they use the same mid & tweeter but add two woofers, yet this contradicts the findings of nearly everyone who's posted their impressions of the two.

I'm very interested since I've been considering the 626's lately.  For the most part I'm not a fan of standmounters, though, so I find the RM1's a lot more appealing on a practical level.

[John Casler]

I'll too add my thanks to Mike and his family and canines for hosting the event.

It was also great to meet HiFi, F100, and see Mike and Mad Dog again.

Remarkably Mike's wife is "hip" enough to be well versed in terms such as "WAF".

And as always, we could have spent "hours" more playing with the toys.  Seems there are always too many options, configurations, and settings to contend with.

One thing I keep seeing is that it seems that more and more we are finding that "power cords" DO make a significant (noticeable) difference in the sound.

In fact it seems like they have more of an effect, than interconnects and speaker cables in some cases.

When we added the Boulder Power cords, there was definitely an improvement to the sound.  I have noticed the same thing in my system lately as I added some AudioQuest and BPT PCs.

While I said "even more so than the interconnects and speaker cables" we didn't try the reverse of adding the interconnects/speaker cables, listening and "then" the power cords to see correlating improvement values.

As far as the Speaker "shoot out", it was actually more of a "tryout", than a shoot out since we (during the time I was there) didn't A/B any speaker to speaker back and forth.

The format was five cuts on one speaker at 80-84 db peaks, then go to the next speaker and 5 cuts on it and so on.

The room was quite large and open I would "guess" at least 25 x 25 with well over 9 foot ceilings.  The floor was carpeted but the rest of the surfaces were standard sheet rock and window glass.

I did a "slap echo" test before the room filled with bodies and it showed a rather lively response.  Mike and I then "arranged" the listening area accordingly.

The listening area was set up in rows, yielding one "primary" sweet spot and one "secondary" right behind it.

The speakers were placed about 9 feet away, and 8-10 feet apart.  They were probably at least at least 7-9 feet "into" the room from the front wall.

As far as listening impressions it is probably relevant that you know the gear set up.  I think Mike can probably supply you with the specific electronics,   I believe the amp was around 100wpc and the speaker wire was (what looked like) a CL-3 grade of Monster Biwire twisted into a single wire configuration.  This was "bare wired" to each speaker (no spades or bananas)

As far as speakers, my impressions were the following:

1) First up Mike had his RM1s which have the spiral ribbon tweeter.  These are the speaker he and I used to setup the seating position.  As with most VMPS ribbons these sound very detailed and clean.  Since Mike uses them in another room, with another amp they were not "optimized" tuning wise, for this set up, but performed admirably well.  The bass was solid and certainly went down to the 30 hz region.  Mike mentioned that he might have to do a little putty adjusting for the different room and electronics, but I only thought one cut seemed a little boomy the rest sounded very good.  The cut I used from Bela Fleck and the Flecktones, (thanks Tommy) was both Bass heavy and highly defined in the high end and the RM1s seem to handle it just fine.

They seemed to image well and had a very sweet high end.  Primary Sweet spot listening was very good, as well as secondary.  In the sweet spot they sounded open, airy and clean.

While I just noticed that Mike didn't think they imaged well, I was able to get good center fill, and placement as well as a full soundstage.  What I did notice was that the center image had "shrunk" a bit and was slightly recessed compared to what I hear with my current reference system.  I think this was room and set up dependant since the 626Rs and "all" the other speakers had this same trait, compared to my reference room at home.

2) 626Rs, I am rather used to this speaker and know it's capabilities.  To me it sounded very similar to the RM1, but with reduced bass response, in fact "much" more reduced than I am used to.  In fact, not really close to what it usually does.

 I can only attribute this to a couple possible culprits.  1)  New stands I brought along.  They are the Skylan 4 posters, which I had just received the day before (FRI)  and had assembled, but were "not" filled with sand, so they were extremely light and not that inert or stable. 2)The lower power or dampening of the AMP (100wpc) since they have gobs of Bass with my amp, and Mad Dogs Aragons.

Generally one of the more impressive aspects of the 626R is the surprisingly low bass response, but that was not present in this set up.  In fact upon arriving home I immediately set up my speakers and ran the same track and found that it was more the room and power than the stands, since even without the sand (which I got today) they have deep bass here.  Strange?????

So I would have to agree with Mike's assessment that the room was not as friendly to the 626Rs.

3) nOhr Mini-9s - While I don't have a lot of experience with this speaker, I do like it based on how it sounded in "my" room and system when Mike brought them by a few months ago.  Today they didn't exhibit all of those qualities.  

I did hear a rather "open" and solid bass that I felt was impressive.  I have to agree that they sounded a bit compressed in the mids and upper mids.  Again, this was not apparent in my system but I have 300wpc and Mike is running 100wpc.

4) Ref Ones - This is one of my favorite $1500 speakers and it did not disappoint today either, in fact it sounded superb.  I'm not so sure that all of it was "room friendliness" as Mike suggested, but that we somehow had it playing slightly "louder" than the other three.  I could hear that immediately and saw the SPL meter hitting 90-92db rather than the 80-84db on the other speakers.  But they sounded so darn good no one cared.

But the Refs as I said, did not disappoint.  Mark has put together one of the strongest contenders in the "under $3000" speaker category out there.  And today it did sound very good from top to bottom.  Solid tight bass, smooth mids and crystal highs.  While I had thought that the somewhat reflective room might cause it problems, such did not seem to be the case.

While the imaging is not as precise as what I have in my highly tweaked reference system at home, it matched or surpassed all the speakers we listened to today, in Mike's room, on that system. (like I said we didn't do any direct A/Bs, and without that, it is impossible to get any more accurate in description)

I for one would have liked, to have had, more time to actually A/B a few of the speakers cut to cut, but the logistics of how many participants and number of component combos made that impossible.

And a couple words about the Boulder package.  I had to leave a little early so didn't get to hear a lot of the toys in the package (DARN!!) but I did get to hear the improvement made by the Power Cords and a couple A/Bs of the Mensa/Dio.

During those A/Bs it was clear that with the Mensa in the circuit that the midrange had more color.  I don't mean it was "colored" but it just had more color and texture (meat).  Now initially I also felt the highs were "down" just a bit, but upon closer listening, it was just that the ratio of mids to highs had changed.  

The reason that this was so hard to discern was that the A/B also had a level change.  That is, the spls increased a bit (maybe 1-2 db) so that had to be corrected before evaluation.

All in all, it was great to meet the new faces, and see Mike, his family and set up, and Mad Dog and his beautiful REFs again.

What a hobby!!!

[Mad DOg]

since everyone else has covered most of the room setup, equipment, and audition music specifics, i'll just dive right in w/ my opinions...all the speakers very good so PLEASE keep in mind that these opinions are strictly the opinions of one individual and not the opinions of AudioCircle...as always, YMMV...

one thing that i do want to clarify though...listening levels were calibrated to the opening 30 secs of the Jimmy Buffet track at 82-84dBs meaning that all speakers had the needle of the SPL meter dancing between 82-84dBs in the opening minute...the volume knob was NOT adjusted after calibrating each speaker to this initial setting...

RM1s:
this was a very nice sounding speaker...surprisingly, they reminded me a lot of my Rocket RS750 Classics in the treble region...very warm and smooth...bass extension was very good but not especially tight. compared to the Ref 1s and 626 FSTs, they gave up a fair amount in the detail department. also due to the wide baffle, they did not image as well as the 626s or Ref 1s. however they did present a nice wide soundstage that was clean and uncompressed.

626R FSTs:
i liked the detail of the 626s better than the RM1s...VERY detailed, transparent and smooth highs...i've heard the 626s at John and my place and the bass wasn't as good at HarleyMYKs place. soundstage was wide and deep. imaging was improved over the RM1s.  the mids were very nice as well not surprisingly similar to the RM1s but overall presentation a bit more analytical and drier than i am accustomed to.

Mini 9s:
these were nice speakers but the biggest disappointment out of the bunch.  as harley stated, they were congested...i thought the soundstage depth suffered greatly due to the compressed presentation. they seemed to be overwhelmed with trying to keep up with the material. i detected some grain and glare in the highs that gave this speaker an unpleasant edginess...bass response wasn't especially tight but much stronger than a speaker of this size has a right to.

Ref 1s:
the Refs had the same level of detail as the 626s. highs were airy and transparent while mids were very smooth...bass extension wasn't the lowest, but what bass was there was the tightest and punchiest of the bunch. soundstage was wide and deep. these were certainly the best looking speakers of the bunch.

overall preference:
1. onix ref 1s
2. vmps 626r's w/ FST
3. vmps rm1s
4. norh mini 9s

cables:
the bolder power cables did improve the bass tightness and overall blackness. highs were more distinct. everything had better clarity and definition...

bolder digital cable vs. onix grand master: in harleyMYK's system and room, the GM was clearly a better sounding cable. bass was tighter and fuller w/ the GM. mids were fuller and lusher. depth was improved. blackness was further improved. the onix GM digital cable is still my favorite.

it was lotsa fun and we'll have to do it again soon...since i'll have the IRD Purist preamp soon maybe it'll be sooner than later!

thanks again to HarleyMYK, his lovely wife, his cute daughter, and friendly dawgs for opening their home to make this session possible!

btw, F-100, you forgot the CD i told you to take! i'll PM you for ur info...

thanks for reading and happy listening

[John Casler]

Please elaborate on the speaks involved. I am espesially interested in the RM1's, as I'm thinking about a kit. How do they stack up against the 626's?

Hi Mark,

The 626R and the RM1 share the same midrange and treble drivers.  They also have the similar baffle width, (12" vs 10.5") so much of the sound will be quite similar.

The RM1 has 2 8" woofers and an 10" passive radiator so bass extends down to around 32Hz.

The 626R has a single 6.5" WCF (woven carbon fiber) woofer which specs out to a 42Hz.

A well tuned and placed RM1 will play slightly louder and of course deeper.

The bass of the 626R may be slightly tighter and dryer due to the "stiffer" WCF woofer.

The 626R is "extremely" good in many nearfield listening set ups and of course can be height adjusted via stand height.

The RM1 is probably more adaptable to greater listening distances.

Maybe at some time in the future, Mike and I can do a  more detailed A/B listening analysis, using different postitionings and electronics to offer a greater insight as to the differences.

(Maybe even a couple different rooms)

Both offer exceptional value.

[Carlman]

This is just a consideration for the 626's...  not to be taken personally... and my own observations.

I can attest the the 626's are incredibly articulate and provide surprisingly low bass.  I heard them yesterday and 'congested' was not a word I'd use to describe them.  However, the room was HEAVILY treated with foam and careful attention was paid to every aspect of that room.  My guess is the congested sound is probably a product of the midrange ribbon's reflections.  Just a guess.  It was the one part of the speaker I could tell would need to be tamed in a lively room like my own.  (all hardwoods and empty spaces)  

BTW, based on this review and some other good info and recommendations, I have bought a pair of the Ref 1's.  1,k shipped with grilles... 4 months old.  Yay!  I am really looking forward to hearing what you all heard in this review.  I'll be comparing them to Diluceo's and writing a review in January.

Thanks for taking the time to post your results here!!!!!!  People like me especially appreciate it.

[F-100]

I also  would like to thank Mike & his lovely wife for inviting us into their beautiful home  and it's a great pleasure to have the opportunity to meet Mike, MadDog, HiFiTommy and John Casler.  With all these epxerts around me,  I feel like a rookie .  It was a great learning experience for me.

Will give my feedback later when I have some free time. Got to run for now!!!!  

Thanks guys!!

[Mad DOg]

This is just a consideration for the 626's...  not to be taken personally... and my own observations.

I can attest the the 626's are incredibly articulate and provide surprisingly low bass.  I heard them yesterday and 'congested' was not a word I'd use to describe them...

i'd agree w/ carlman on this...i heard john's 626s in my room on my gear and didn't detect any congestion either...so as carlman alludes to, the room does play a large part in this equation.

[Mad DOg]

BTW, based on this review and some other good info and recommendations, I have bought a pair of the Ref 1's. 1,k shipped with grilles... 4 months old. Yay! I am really looking forward to hearing what you all heard in this review...

that was a smokin' deal for the pair on a-gon...hope you enjoy them as much as i enjoy mine...