[avahifi]

One of my clients e-mailed me today asking if it was OK to run his Insight DAC vertically (on its side) due to space limitations.

I had to give him the following warning which bears repeating here today.

>>> If you put the DAC on its side, you risk the chance of having the electrons come out sideways, and the music playing from up to down, instead of from left to right.  Orientation of the unit is critically important.  It just was not designed for sideways operation at all.

Some of the electrons might also kind of pile up inside the sides of the capacitors and not flow out as they should, risking them burning through the cases and starting fires and explosions.

We strongly urge that you not try this.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine
Dated 4/1/09     <<<

[JerryM]

 

[Scottdazzle]

Frank, that's hilarious!  it reminds me of some information I received long ago about how speakers in Australia had to be placed with the woofers on top because the magnetic pole in the southern hemisphere is reversed! 

[TjMV3]

I once turned my DAC,  Pre Amp and Amp upside down and put Alice Cooper's Schools Out CD in my transport.

Imagine my shock when the soundtrack to West Side Story started emitting from my speakers.  Quite disturbing.  Needless to say,  I never did that again.


 

[Minn Mark]

I know its long out-of-print, but I recall seeing this same advice years ago in Audio magazine, They had a venerable sporadic contributor who I considered a GENIUS. His name was Prof. Dr. I. Lirpa.

best regards to all

M

 

[stereocilia]

Funny response, but I hope you don't think it's an unreasonable question. I mean is it really flaky to wonder if some widget inside the black box should not be positioned directly below another widget which could be damaged by heat?  Maybe I don't get the joke.  That happens sometimes to me.

[avahifi]

Well, my client approved of my answer.  He responded that he had returned from the dentist and my answer was the first smile he had that day.

However, you are correct that my flippant answer is not suitable in all cases.

For example some vacuum tubes probably should be used only in a vertical application.  We know that many small signal tubes, such as the 12AX7 and 12AT7, which do not run all that hot, seem to provide fine reliable service mounted horizontally.  However a really hot running tube such as the 6N1P and most power tubes likely will not like long term horizontal use.  The internal structure is designed for vertical operation.  Horizontal operation of a very hot running tube may cause the elements to slightly sag, either changing the electrical characteristics of the tube, or worse case, causing it to fail.

I knew my client was referring to an all solid state cool running Insight DAC so I felt that an April 1st response was appropriate.  I would not have given him the same advice regarding a Transcendence Eight or Ultra DAC, both of which use 6N1P tubes.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[markC]

I once chaged the direction of a pair of directional speaker cables to see if there was any differece. The sound came out of my amps. That scared me, so I quickly put them back to the correct orientation and never tried it again.

[TjMV3]

You mean to tell me no one here is a fan of the Alice Cooper School's Out album?

No one gets that joke?

C' mon,  that was funny



 

[stereocilia]

You mean to tell me no one here is a fan of the Alice Cooper School's Out album?

No one gets that joke?

C' mon,  that was funny



 

I think Alice Cooper did that song on the Muppett Show.  Now THAT was disturbing.

[stereocilia]

Well, my client approved of my answer.  He responded that he had returned from the dentist and my answer was the first smile he had that day.

However, you are correct that my flippant answer is not suitable in all cases.

For example some vacuum tubes probably should be used only in a vertical application.  We know that many small signal tubes, such as the 12AX7 and 12AT7, which do not run all that hot, seem to provide fine reliable service mounted horizontally.  However a really hot running tube such as the 6N1P and most power tubes likely will not like long term horizontal use.  The internal structure is designed for vertical operation.  Horizontal operation of a very hot running tube may cause the elements to slightly sag, either changing the electrical characteristics of the tube, or worse case, causing it to fail.

I knew my client was referring to an all solid state cool running Insight DAC so I felt that an April 1st response was appropriate.  I would not have given him the same advice regarding a Transcendence Eight or Ultra DAC, both of which use 6N1P tubes.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

Oh Yeah...April 1st   
Alright, excuse me while I go replace my computer desk with a stronger one to support the added weight of all the data I'm uploading to the hard drive.

[dB Cooper]

One of my clients e-mailed me today asking if it was OK to run his Insight DAC vertically (on its side) due to space limitations.

I had to give him the following warning which bears repeating here today.

>>> If you put the DAC on its side, you risk the chance of having the electrons come out sideways, and the music playing from up to down, instead of from left to right.  Orientation of the unit is critically important.  It just was not designed for sideways operation at all.

Some of the electrons might also kind of pile up inside the sides of the capacitors and not flow out as they should, risking them burning through the cases and starting fires and explosions.

We strongly urge that you not try this.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine
Dated 4/1/09     <<<

Perhaps  it would work out if he also rotated his speakers 

[orthobiz]

You mean to tell me no one here is a fan of the Alice Cooper School's Out album?

No one gets that joke?

C' mon,  that was funny



 

It's funny but I don't get it.

Paul

[Brett Buck]

Oh Yeah...April 1st   
Alright, excuse me while I go replace my computer desk with a stronger one to support the added weight of all the data I'm uploading to the hard drive.

   You joke, but I was witness to someone actually asking a question like that. I work for Lockheed Space Systems Company, and we were doing a CDR (Critical design review) for a very large military satellite program. This is a huge meeting with all the military types, up to Generals, and you go over every detail of the design. The guy presenting the charts for the main flight computer is up there going through his spiel. A full bird Colonel in the audience asked "How much more does the computer weigh when the software is loaded into it?" And he was serious. The look on the presenter's face was priceless - what do you say? The customer, spending literally $20 billion dollars, so you can't say "you dumbass, that makes no sense at all", obviously you can't answer the question directly. After an awkward moment, he tries to gloss over it without actually addressing it. But the colonel is pretty sharp, he sees that the guy dodged the question, and says "Thanks, but you never really answered the question!". Now you can almost feel the tension, the presenter's face is turning red, and the audience is hold it's breath because everybody else in the room knows it doesn't make any sense. He start hemming and hawing, and fortunately one of his junior officers leans over and whispers something in his ear, and then the colonel lets him off the hook - "Never mind".

     Brett

[MarkD]

In my day, the punched cards would have weighed something.   

[geezer]

Oh Yeah...April 1st   
Alright, excuse me while I go replace my computer desk with a stronger one to support the added weight of all the data I'm uploading to the hard drive.

   You joke, but I was witness to someone actually asking a question like that. I work for Lockheed Space Systems Company, and we were doing a CDR (Critical design review) for a very large military satellite program. This is a huge meeting with all the military types, up to Generals, and you go over every detail of the design. The guy presenting the charts for the main flight computer is up there going through his spiel. A full bird Colonel in the audience asked "How much more does the computer weigh when the software is loaded into it?" And he was serious. The look on the presenter's face was priceless - what do you say? The customer, spending literally $20 billion dollars, so you can't say "you dumbass, that makes no sense at all", obviously you can't answer the question directly. After an awkward moment, he tries to gloss over it without actually addressing it. But the colonel is pretty sharp, he sees that the guy dodged the question, and says "Thanks, but you never really answered the question!". Now you can almost feel the tension, the presenter's face is turning red, and the audience is hold it's breath because everybody else in the room knows it doesn't make any sense. He start hemming and hawing, and fortunately one of his junior officers leans over and whispers something in his ear, and then the colonel lets him off the hook - "Never mind".

     Brett

If I had been giving the spiel, I'd have given the colonel the direct (and truthful) answer with a perfectly straight face: "There is a change in weight, but it's so small we wouldn't be able to measure it." Then I would have continued without missing a beat.

I had an analogous experience way back in 1960. I was a lieutenant (ex ROTC) at Ft. Monmouth in New Jersey (now defunct), where the army signal corps labs were. Because my background was a good fit with the program of one of the research divisions, I was assigned to work with a (civilian) research group instead of getting a more typical military job. A few months later my name came to the top of a duty roster and I got the job of squiring around a group from Washington (a couple of congressmen and some generals) during their three-day review of the research labs. When the lab director described the progress of the division I was in (not knowing that one of the group members (me) was in the audience) he painted such a glowing picture you would have thought we all were a bunch of Einsteins. The truth was that the previous three years had been an uninterrupted sequence of disasters. Of course the generals and congressmen swallowed it whole.

[gjs_cds]

He start hemming and hawing, and fortunately one of his junior officers leans over and whispers something in his ear, and then the colonel lets him off the hook - "Never mind".

     Brett

Great story, Brett... Thanks for sharing. 

[turkey]

such as the 12AX7 and 12AT7, which do not run all that hot, seem to provide fine reliable service mounted horizontally.  However a really hot running tube such as the 6N1P and most power tubes likely will not like long term horizontal use.  The internal structure
is designed for vertical operation.  Horizontal operation of a very hot running tube may cause the elements to slightly sag, either changing the electrical characteristics of the tube, or worse case, causing it to fail.

I suppose this is possible, although I have seen a lot of older tube gear (including WW II-vintage aircraft electronics) that had the tubes horizontally or even at other angles and it seemed to work just fine.

I have also seen TV sets with various tubes placed horizontally (CRTs are placed horizontally and they seem to last a long time...) and you can bet they wouldn't have put them that way if there were issues with reliability. (People have seemed to have rather high expectations for the reliability of their TV systems since at least the '60s. It's like electricity and the dial tone on your phone - you just expect it to work.)

[turkey]

computer is up there going through his spiel. A full bird Colonel in the audience asked "How much more does the computer weigh when the software is loaded into it?" And he was serious. The look on the presenter's face was priceless - what do you say? The

The correct answer is that the technology we use allows us to load all the software without any weight liability at all.

[geezer]

such as the 12AX7 and 12AT7, which do not run all that hot, seem to provide fine reliable service mounted horizontally.  However a really hot running tube such as the 6N1P and most power tubes likely will not like long term horizontal use.  The internal structure
is designed for vertical operation.  Horizontal operation of a very hot running tube may cause the elements to slightly sag, either changing the electrical characteristics of the tube, or worse case, causing it to fail.

I suppose this is possible, although I have seen a lot of older tube gear (including WW II-vintage aircraft electronics) that had the tubes horizontally or even at other angles and it seemed to work just fine.

I have also seen TV sets with various tubes placed horizontally (CRTs are placed horizontally and they seem to last a long time...) and you can bet they wouldn't have put them that way if there were issues with reliability. (People have seemed to have rather high expectations for the reliability of their TV systems since at least the '60s. It's like electricity and the dial tone on your phone - you just expect it to work.)

I don't know about other types of tubes, but surely CRTs are DESIGNED for horizontal applications.