Supravox field coils on JE Labs baffles

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #20 on:** 19 May 2009, 09:18 pm »

I just thought I'd chime in here again. I am still listening to my Supravox setup and it is frankly phenomenal. I can honestly say it is inches within the best I've ever heard at any price. The drivers have broken-in further and gotten smoother and more detailed. The amount of musical nuance and that magical 'dynamics with ease' I am becoming convinced are things that you only get (to this degee) with field-coil drivers.

The TBI subs fill in the low end so completely seamlessly and transparently it still amazes me. I am curious about how a full OB bass system would sound, but the TBI low bass is like OB bass - zero overhang. There's no "impact"; it's just "there". (Some would call that a negative - I like it.)

I still feel no need for a tweeter either.

Power is my Yamamoto 45 or Wright 2A3 monos. Both have ample power - though the Wright's ability to go into A2 is noted when listening rather loud.

I read recently about Da Vinci Audio. They build commercial OB speakers using field-coil drivers. They use Fertin now but used to use Supravox - and their Supravox-based OB speaker cost $100K!!! It is just one 215 with a bass driver on an (admittedly very complex and expensive) baffle!

Docere · « **Reply #21 on:** 21 May 2009, 04:51 am »

Hi Guys

Interesting read. I may be considering these drivers in the near future and have one concern. I listen to music with friends, whilst doing chores, and don't mind gettin' my funk on (er, dancing badly, air guitar, air vibraphone

). I am wondering about their off-axis performance. I don't need sound staging or the highest highs most any time - and certainly not when off-axis and getting all funked up - but I would like music to still have that life, immediacy, and vibrancy... fun! Any thoughts?

Oh, and what is build quality like - I have read some mixed reports way back in the past, though recent reports seem to indicate pretty consistent sound quality.

Cheers
Raymond

-Richard- · « **Reply #22 on:** 21 May 2009, 04:39 pm »

Hi Bill/levinsje ~

Thanks for the photo links. Your work is incredibly impressive. The wood grain looks alive and beautifully finished. Your home-theater experience must make the commercial-theater experience seem like a generic substitute by comparison. I can only imagine how much fun it must be to watch... and listen... to movies with your rig.

Deb and I watch a small older Sony television (for movies only) with our Open Baffle speaker audio system... anyone who does not have their Open Baffle speakers playing for their home movie experience is missing something quite extraordinary... it brings the movie experience to life... so that even our small screen translates a great deal of the passion and mystery that is cinema's special power.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

levinsje · « **Reply #23 on:** 27 May 2009, 08:36 pm »

Hi Richard,
Thanks.
I spend most of my time listening to vinyl but do fire up the projector for an hour or so in the evenings. It does sound amazing. Several weeks ago I installed a "buttkicker tactile transducer" under my couch. The whole unit is about $300 and makes a huge difference with movies. Not only can you feel the bass but you can actually hear the bass through the couch. Highly recommended.

Thanks again,
Jim

-Richard- · « **Reply #24 on:** 28 May 2009, 07:45 pm »

Hi PaulFolbrecht ~

You have me thinking about the Supravox field coils... it may be the perfect drivers for my kind of listening aesthetic... simple yet effective. I find myself actually considering purchasing them (even though there is a gapping gorge where a budget used to be). It may be a more effective solution than purchasing a different amplifier, for example.

Also, I am interested in finishing what I started in terms of a DIY Open Baffle solution. I cannot help but think that having a "classic" field coil driver will be my last incursion into any concerns for speaker performance.

Are you able to actually get 100db sensitivity from your Supravox OB drivers? It was my understanding that the OB version had a lower sensitivity rating.

I realize that dialing-in the voltages will effect sensitivity... and I have also read that the higher the sensitivity one dials-in (by varying the voltages) that some distortion becomes evident (the sound gets tipped up and thins-out)... but I am not certain I understand exactly what the relationship is between voltage and performance... I assume there is a "voltage-range" one can dial-in that gives the best all-over frequency response... any thoughts on that.

Thanks for drawing our attention back to the field-coil drivers as an effective option for OB's. They do seem to work against the cheap-DIY-solution with their pricey costs... but admittedly... compared to commercial speakers... especially the current commercially available OB's with their high prices... a pair of field coil drivers seems like a not-completely-out-line possibility.

And for anyone with SET amplification... especially the low powered 45 and 2A3 tube versions... the higher the sensitivity the better. I might even be tempted to revisit SET land again if the sensitivities of the Supravox field coils can be kept up near the 100db sensitivity range.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

JoshK · « **Reply #25 on:** 28 May 2009, 08:15 pm »

Apart from the aforementioned problems with Fertins and complex music, the closest thing I've heard to a surreal euphoric listening experience was with Fertins in OB. So I do think this is a very viable path for some and for maybe all if the complexity problem can be solve (critical for me).

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #26 on:** 30 May 2009, 04:05 am »

Richard, I'll see if I can answer your questions.

I doubt the sensitivity is 100 dB/W - I know it's not - yet they are easily drivable by a 45 amp to 90 dB+ in a large room. The sensitivity/voltage graphs are on the SV site. I really think there is very little difference between the "OB" and "non OB" version and I've heard the latter is a special-order item and uncommon.

What the coil voltage does mainly is move the Q. What it does to the frequency response I'm not really sure but higher voltages probably do mean a rising response. I run them at 6V where they are definitely not peaky at all. If there is one thing I cannot stand it is a shouty full-range driver - and frankly that's what nearly all of them are (the PHY being the only other one I know that isn't.. oh, and the AER).

The Supravox drivers on OB are not perfect, but there is no perfect speaker in my experience. They are very, very good, in almost all areas, certainly at their price range and well beyond. They are right about a draw with my 2nd favorite non-unobtanium speakers, Audio Note AN/Es. I think - I have not yet owned both together!

nicoch46 · « **Reply #27 on:** 30 May 2009, 11:30 am »

HI my supra 215S bicone is not in the same class ,especialy on motor ,but is a perfect for OB and don't shout ... 200mm without bicone cannot go up very well ,physical ! IMO

165 can be better but need 15"

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #28 on:** 31 May 2009, 01:01 am »

A few more comments.

What the SV drivers have, to reiterate, is that 'field-coil magic' - that ability to sound *super* smooth but also very, very agile and dynamic. This is what they bring to the table that you can hardly get anywhere else. To get it for $3K is really a steal IMO.

-Richard- · « **Reply #29 on:** 2 Jun 2009, 05:05 am »

Hi PaulFolbrecht ~

Thanks so much for your kindness in sharing your listening experiences with the Supravox 215-2000 field-coil drivers. I deeply appreciate it.

Smooth, yet agile and dynamic... sounds like a perfect description of well recorded music itself. I wonder if I can interpret your description as sounding (among what you have already written) "transparent"? As you may guess from my question, I am looking for a more transparent sound in the rendering of musical textures.

I tried contacting David, who lives a couple of hours (perhaps a bit more) south from me in California... I left 2 messages... no response. That is not characteristic of him... the last time I spoke with him he seemed responsive.

Is someone else handling Supravox in the US now? or is the debacle in the US financial sector affecting him directly... I think he is/was a financial planner.

Any information about who may now be handling Supravox in the US would be deeply appreciated... or any related information.

With Warmest Regards ~ Richard

Telstar · « **Reply #30 on:** 2 Jun 2009, 12:09 pm »

Quote from: JoshK on 28 May 2009, 08:15 pm

Apart from the aforementioned problems with Fertins and complex music, the closest thing I've heard to a surreal euphoric listening experience was with Fertins in OB. So I do think this is a very viable path for some and for maybe all if the complexity problem can be solve (critical for me).

I think multiple drivers can solve that, i.e. at least 2 per speakers. But that doubles the price.
For price/perf i would go with the Supravox FC (and i'm seriously thinking to).

BlkNotes · « **Reply #31 on:** 2 Jun 2009, 05:39 pm »

Paul;

Which TBI subs are you using? I am assuming thay are being run active, what amp(s) is powering the subs?

Where are you crossing them over?

BN

mumford · « **Reply #32 on:** 3 Jun 2009, 12:14 am »

Supravox group buy? i am interested in a pair of 12" field coils.

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #33 on:** 3 Jun 2009, 07:45 pm »

Blk, please see my TBI review on AA. They are the active VIPs and I settled on the high-pass at 70 Hz.

My baffles are raised which means higher bass rolloff.

levinsje · « **Reply #34 on:** 14 Jun 2009, 02:49 pm »

Hi Richard,
The Supravox US distributor Dave Levinson is my brother and yes his business (financial planner) is being hit hard with the economy. I suggest to try and call again.

Best Regards,
Jim

-Richard- · « **Reply #35 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 01:04 am »

Hi Jim ~

Thanks for the suggestion. I actually did try again and was able to speak with David. And he was very responsive and made himself extremely accessible in terms of providing opportunities for listening to his Supravox horn set-up at his house... very nice of him and very professional.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #36 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 04:10 am »

Richard,

You'll have to let us know how the sound is! Last time I mailed him, asking about TLs and his horn, no response. They sound very good on the JEL baffles but of course one is always curious. The TL enclosure would go down to an honest 40 Hz making subs passe.

One comment about the factory TL plans, though: A very well-known and well-regarded builder of TL speakers in the U.S. told me the design is terrible. He was going off theory only - the driver measurements and the plans. Really no idea how accurate that is.

Docere · « **Reply #37 on:** 15 Jun 2009, 05:57 am »

Hi guys

I am still wondering about the listening position. From a previous post:

Quote

I am wondering about their off-axis performance. I don't need sound staging or the highest highs most any time - and certainly not when off-axis and getting all funked up - but I would like music to still have that life, immediacy, and vibrancy... fun! Any thoughts?

Anyone able to comment?

Cheers
Raymond

-Richard- · « **Reply #38 on:** 16 Jun 2009, 10:52 pm »

Hi PaulFulbrecht ~

Yes of course... I will keep this thread informed of my listening experiences when I finally am able to get to David's house for a listen.

I am drawn to horns as a valid alternative to OB's... if I had a shop area and equipment I would build a horn for the Supravox's... using an internal "chamber" to direct the drivers low frequencies so they can be "amplified" naturally... is very appealing to me. And a well-designed horn looks kind of c-o-o-l!!

It is not always reliable to look at schematic baffle plans and to draw conclusions about the performance... but your friend may be on target... only experimenting will really tell. Still... I once was rather curious and found several variants on nice looking horns using 8" wide-range drivers like the Supravox's... so one should be able to come up with something in that regard.

It is ironical that many people feel that a simple flat baffle like the one I use for my OB's could not possibly sound good... some who have heard my system are literally stunned. Perception (how the mind projects images) often performs a strange species of skewered mind shaping.

Warmest Regards ~ Richard

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #39 on:** 16 Jun 2009, 11:08 pm »

Richard,

Do be aware that the Supravox driver is not designed for a BLH enclosure. Drivers designed for horns have a steep bass roll-off below 150 or 200 Hz or so - where the horn amplifies. But the SV is flat to 50 Hz.

I know people who use them in horns use EQ, but then I don't much understand the point of the horn.

A TL is another matter altogether, as it simply extends the bass roll-off below the driver's resonant freq.

As for simple OBs sounding good, they surely can! They won't measure flat in small frequency bands but people that know psychoacoustics know that doesn't matter much - the brain averages freq response over certain intervals.