[James Tanner]

Hi Bassman (slim),

I saw your post under Chat Room regarding sound cards.

I have 3 setups at this point -
1. Music Vault (windows server) with M-Audio card using Media Monkey,
2. MAC Pro Laptop with Itunes, and
3. Windows XP with Lynx AES16E card using Foobar.

Interested in your experiences with setup and sound quality vs CD Player etc.

james

[Bassmann]

Hi James.

I've got a PC personally that i put together myself, running XP Pro.

A full list of components I chose are:- (Chosen for Quality and Quietness mainly)

Cooler Master Cosmos Case. (nice quite case, but MASSIVE)
Asus P5K Premium ATX motherboard (with onboard soundmax audio, digital coax output) needed at the time for BP26(DA).
Seasonic M12 - 620W Power Supply.
1x 120 gig sata - samsung harddrive for operating system.
1x 500 gig sata - samsung for music files
3x 1 Terrabite sata - samsungs for music files (all music files ripped at 44,100 kHz WAV /Microsoft PCM converter in EAC)
Noctua NHU-12 - 120 mm CPU Cooler
Samsung SH-S202N DVD Burner (good DAE for ripping)

RME DIGI 96/8 PST (added just last week)     Would of got a LYNX L22 - but moneys the object.

Chord Company signature digital interconnect
 
I don't think I've missed anything there.......hhmmmm....no


CD PLAYER vs SOUNDCARD


The CD player I've got at the moment is a now redundant - TEAC VRDS T1. 



The difference in sound quality between that player and my PC is night and day. Through my PC the music is much clearer and has better definition across the board. As far as I'm aware I'm getting the best sound quality possible????, with it being BIT PERFECT pass through to the DAC via itunes with multi-plug in and Foobar 2000 with ASIO passthrough component installed, who's output in foobars options is set to ASIO digi 96/8 and no DSP or equalization (itunes) - the digital data should be being sent straight from the harddrive, bypassing windows Kernel mixer, straight through the soundcard and into the DAC unaltered?????? Ive set system sounds to NO SOUNDS, but left soundmax set as default audio device.

That setup with foobar / itunes 7 and multi plug in / ripped with EAC as perfect copy WAVs is seriously flawed, it makes ripping a CD and importing it into itunes a mammoth task aaaaaaarrrrrrrr. I would just rip into itunes with the AIFF converter, but when i do and try to play the files i get a foobar error message saying unsupported or corrupted file format and no sound. But if i install the current itunes 8 and find the EAC imported library file ripped previously and convert it into aiff, then uninstall that and then reinstall the itunes 7 with multi plug in again, find the file in my library again and import it - hey presto an aiff file with album artwork that plays ball with foobar.

Why bother? i hear you ask........... because sound quality is massively improved with foobar compared to Apples Quicktime. Quicktime sounds like mud on a PC compared to foobar and is worth the effort....i like itunes for organising my music as well, though I should have got an MAC G5 or MAC Pro because they are bitperfect out of the box with a few tweaks to the settings, but again that's flawed slightly because apples quicktime is not as good a ripper as EAC........ but you still have the problems of importing your EAC rips into itunes and having to sort the information out. Not as good as PC's for expansion and flexibility........  sigh.........

Not sure what to say really about sound quality, it sounds CRISP but that very much depends on the quality of recording and mastering, some songs sound thin and weedy with crackles and pops and others sound full of life with noises shooting in and out and left and right very well, good bass, soundstage etc. After installing the RME card I cant hear much of an improvement tbh over the onboard sound i was getting, it has slightly better bass i think but everything else seems about the same. It's hard to tell, because it sounds so damn good anyway!!!!   
Ian of PMC            Though i find listening with my headphones (sony mdr-7506 - thanks drummer mitchel) plugged into the soundcard reveals more definition to noises than my OB1's can muster... maybe its a cable thing?

Upon first listening to your amps when i first got them, the main thing i noticed straight away compared to my previous Cyrus 7, smart power and psxr, mission 780, Arcam alpha 7SE CD. was how well they presented sounds that go from one speaker to the other, fully locked on, everything where it should be, and i like that.


Have you any plans to release a BCD-1 " T " Transport only player. I don't need the DAC personally and so its extra expense that i don't need to go to............. I'm not gonna ask if you can give me one or anything like that, because i will work hard for the right things....

Maybe that would convert me back to Standalone CD players? and show me what I'm missing sound quality wise.......???

Though that'll take some doing as i love computer audio sound quality wise, and the convenience of access to all your music with a click of your finger (which can also make you a bad listener, flicking through the best passages in your music, yaaaaa hhhhhhoooooooo)

Well, there you have it, not sure you asked for all that but there you go.

Regards

P.S. can you imagine how annoyed I'd be if I'd logged in for 60 min and the server timed out...........its happened before............

[James Tanner]

Thanks Bassman,

Very informative. I agree bypassing the windows mixer is mandatory.
I am still running blind listening tests so I will report my findings as I move along.
I have a number of the same cuts at 44/88 and 96/192.

james

[drummermitchell]

Hi BASSMAN,glad you like the phones,Reading all that Tech recording from computer is way too
complicated for me,I'll stick with my BCD-1 and HHB-cdr,interesting stuff though.

[Bassmann]

It is complicated isn't it, its like you crawl from one hurdle to another and when you get there theirs lots more to learn which presents more problems, but you have to learn it to get best results and no ones gonna teach you. (god bless the internet) Its more an issue of software than hardware.

Sorry, I'm gonna ramble on a bit here and off topic slightly........

I only scratched the surface with all that above. But at the end of the day it can be as complicated as you want it to be. Some of the issues i mentioned actually stem to other things you'd want to do such as Burning Cd's using CUE sheets as reference, that basically make it possible to achieve a perfect 1/1 copy of the original disc, so that your cd player will see your burned disc the same as the original regarding the correct silence in between tracks and where that silence starts from and ends ie 2 / 3 or 3.4 seconds silence starting at the end of the previous track, or at the beginning of the next track etc etc. Those issues though are probably on a par with extreme ironing, say, off the hoover dam......yikes... ..Most people will be content using Nero, and that gives the option to select to include 2 second gaps or no gaps. But its likely not Exact as the original. Does it matter? To me yes, I've lots and lots and lots of music that I haven't got the original Cd's of and would struggle to buy find them as well (underground), courtesy of my DJ friend.

The guy who put the multi plug-in together is bit of a genius, to say he did it from home and gave it away for free. Maybe i should approach him to see what the score is on this issue of software package / soundcard just for playback and burning purposes that does it all, and then some, maybe collaborate with a soundcard manufacturer after the softwares completed (one needs the other), making it the only way to enable to do it.hhhhmmmmm? All those softwares are freeware and could maybe put it all together slightly different to avoid copyrights or give them royalties for borrowing their technology, then create an instruction manual and a nice shiny box containing the software and soundcard...........???? Fuzzy logic????

For those interested in learning more about itunes with foobar passthrough on XP, heres some good info

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/itunes-foobar-users-audio-quality-guide-246209/


Is computer audio inferior to dedicated cd players? Afterall the music was mastered and produced in a studio using computers somewhere in the mix. Anyone care to comment?

[James Tanner]

Is computer audio inferior to dedicated cd players? Afterall the music was mastered and produced in a studio using computers somewhere in the mix. Anyone care to comment?

Hi Bassman,

That's a great question - so far it looks like it's as complicated a question and as variable a question as puttting together an audio component system. All 3 of my setups sound different.

james

[WerTicus]

I have the lynx l22, I cant fault it.

foobar 2k , asio, no samplers or eq at all.  balanced operation to a nuforce 8b.

speakers are very flat response from 40hz - 100khz and i just use the rythmik subs controls to get that level perfectly blended.

[Bassmann]

Hi WerTicus

Thats quiet a card you've got there, and is probably one of the best available for 2 channel audio i think. Due to it having a superb DAC for both recording and playback using its own. The thing that put me off slightly about that card though (and others) is the break-out cables.

Can i ask are you using custom made cables on it? do you record music?

I take it, if your using the balanced outputs of the card, that you are using its own DAC? Before i decided to go for the BP26 (DA) my objective was always Computer as my main source (before i had either a pc or BP26), and so that pre was perfect for me and to my knownledge was the best way to do it, having the DAC built-in with the anologue signal being passed on into the amp through class A op amps (not sure if thats right) making it just a matter of bit-perfect output from the PC for me. I didn't know anything about BIT-PERFECT output 6 months ago and wasn't even aware of it.

So i'm glad its all worked out well for me, and I feel I made the right decision for once.

I have wondered what the best digital input signal would be for the DAC, regarding CLOCK frequency? but i don't know anything about that aspect of things, and/or if it matters anyway.

Regards

[sfraser]

I built a media center PC a few years ago. It was based around a silverstone case and  ASUS MB w/ P4. I used a M-Audio 2496 sound card which was a lot of fun. It was connected directly (analog i believe) to my SP1. I never really used the PC  much for video, but had a blast making party mix's with a DJ  application called MixMiester . My wife and I have "Parrot head" parties, I used to spend a few evenings a couple of weeks prior to the party mixing 5-6 hours of old rock, blues, and reggae, music with MixMiester. The SP1 fed a pair of 4B's  which powered the PSB Stratus gold i's in the family room. I used the SP1 tape out to run patch cables to a Parasound pre/3B power amp in the basement. The 3B powered a pair of Klipsch LaScalla's....ahem.. that combo rocked the room. I patched out of the Parasound to a Yamaha Receiver which powered  set's of PSB's in the kitchen and the rear deck. Lot's of fun! At the time i used to control it all from my laptop, from which I would remote desktop into the media center PC. It used to bother me that the whole thing was front ended by Microsoft, but it performed pretty well.

I have about 1Tb of WAV/ MP3's  in a rack mounted server in the basement. I don't use the media center pc much anymore, i converted most of my wav files to flac, not realizing that MixMiester cannot decode flac files . I have also moved over to Squeezebox's and Squeezecenter for audio and Popcorn hour Media tanks for video/.This has pretty much made my media center obsolete except for ripping new CD's. The Squeezecenter interface is good, but mixing music with MixMiester was a blast!.

[Bassmann]

Hi S fraser

What did you think of your M-Audio 2496, sound quality wise?

Regards

[sfraser]

Hi S fraser

What did you think of your M-Audio 2496, sound quality wise?

Regards

I was quite happy with it. It was quite flexible, although many of the software features were oriented towards musicians. I bounced back and forth between using it's internal DAC and the SP1 DAC. I could not really notice any difference between the DAC's. Serious listening a lower volumes was problematic because of fan noise from the media center pc. Would I by another one? Absolutely. Hope that helps.

[Bassmann]

I find the RME Digi 96/8 PST a bit boring really, with regards to settings and stuff to play with. I bought it thinking I could use the Digicheck analasis tool (spectrum equaliser, etc) for real time monitoring of the music playing.

But its not until after I got it that I realised that feature is for adjusting the sounds of your RECORDED files, specifically recorded with the PST only. Damn...

Everyone still raves about this cards sound quality though. And is one of the few that can do bit-perfect.

[niels]

This is just a comment, not about soundcards I know, so sorry....
Us using Transporter, SB3 or Duet avoid a whole lot of funny words, ASIO, XP mixmaster, foobar, clock frequency, bit perfect etc etc.
We install Squeezecenter on the computer, and we have bit perfect transfer, but then again, we dont use ITunes for anything except ripping and organizing, we dont use it as a player. When ripping is concerned I am not so paranoid, a data file is a data file, and if a word document has a flaw you cant open it.....
About the RME converter, a shoot out between an RME ADI-8 QS and the Transporter here recently resulted in, yes, the Transporter won....

[NewBuyer]

...a shoot out between an RME ADI-8 QS and the Transporter here recently resulted in, yes, the Transporter won....

Hi niels,

In my own comparison, the Transporter unfortunately did not outperform the Lynx L22 card in analog-out performance (I have not tried the RME however)... that Lynx L22 is really something special.

But the SlimServer operation and interface is genuinely first-rate, it's all that I use now! 

Perhaps if/when the SqueezePlay application is ever finally finished at Logitech, we will be able to more easily use our silent HTPC's directly with SqueezeCenter, and put our SB3s and Transporters in the closet...

[James Tanner]

Hi All,

The reason I went with the MAudio Audiophile 192 soundcard and the Lynx AES16e soundcard is they both will do up to 192/24 resolution. The Lynx is used a lot in our Pro installs

Anyone know of other sound cards that will do 192/24. Mac Pro is limited to 96/24.  I believe all the streaming devices are limited at this point to 44/16?

james

[alexone]

Hi All,

The reason I went with the MAudio Audiophile 192 soundcard and the Lynx AES16e soundcard is they both will do up to 192/24 resolution. The Lynx is used a lot in our Pro installs

Anyone know of other sound cards that will do 192/24. Mac Pro is limited to 96/24.  I believe all the streaming devices are limited at this point to 44/16?

james

james,

try ESI Juli@. it's a PCI soundcard. i haven't tried it personally but i was reading about it in a hifi magazine.

hope this helps...


al.

[Jon L]

Hi All,

The reason I went with the MAudio Audiophile 192 soundcard and the Lynx AES16e soundcard is they both will do up to 192/24 resolution. The Lynx is used a lot in our Pro installs

I don't think Lynx had too much $ left in the budget for the breakout cables b/c my Lynx 2B's stock breakout cables sound rather poor by audiophile standards.  I made my own breakout cables using single-crystal copper magnet wires, but some people have had good results with the Zaolla offerings like this one for AES16:

http://www.proaudiosolutions.com/product-p/lynx-cbl-aes1604.htm

BTW, has Bryston looked at the new ESS Sabre32 Reference (ES9018) DAC chip?  Those who have tried it all seem *quite* impressed, and I would love to see a Bryston dicrete output DAC with ESS Sabre32 Reference (ES9018) DAC chip   

[James Tanner]

Hi All,

The reason I went with the MAudio Audiophile 192 soundcard and the Lynx AES16e soundcard is they both will do up to 192/24 resolution. The Lynx is used a lot in our Pro installs

I don't think Lynx had too much $ left in the budget for the breakout cables b/c my Lynx 2B's stock breakout cables sound rather poor by audiophile standards.  I made my own breakout cables using single-crystal copper magnet wires, but some people have had good results with the Zaolla offerings like this one for AES16:

http://www.proaudiosolutions.com/product-p/lynx-cbl-aes1604.htm

BTW, has Bryston looked at the new ESS Sabre32 Reference (ES9018) DAC chip?  Those who have tried it all seem *quite* impressed, and I would love to see a Bryston dicrete output DAC with ESS Sabre32 Reference (ES9018) DAC chip   

Hi Jon,

Thanks for the cable tip -I will check it out.

Yes we have looked at the ESS and it is a very good chip (32 bit/-120 etc.).  But as I have said before we find that most of the quality chips available have performance within a hairs breath of each other and the circuitry around the chips is far more important - power supply design, ground planes, discrete analog crrcuits etc. in the final sound quality attainable.

james

[NewBuyer]

...I don't think Lynx had too much $ left in the budget for the breakout cables...I made my own breakout cables using single-crystal copper magnet wires...

Hey Jon L,

I haven't personally tried any other cables but the included ones (balanced outs), thanks for the tip.  However I've never seen anybody offering upgraded or "audiophile" Lynx L22 analog out cables for sale - have you? 

[P.S. Sorry for the duplicate posts below - I don't know how that happened...]

[NewBuyer]

(sorry duplicate post)