[floresjc]

Hello everyone. Been browsing the board on and off for seems like forever now. I'd like to talk a bit about upgrading my home theater, and perhaps you can all weigh in. Right now I have an Outlaw 1070 receveiver, and some Onix Rocket speakers (RS760 fronts, with RSC200 center).

I'll cut right to the heart of my dilemma. HT3 is the top of my wishlist, but are so much pricier than the raved about Songtowers. I'm certain the Songtowers are better than what's in 99% of US homes today, and are way better than the stuff I have now and I would love them to death like everyone else. But I can't help but think about "the last pair of speakers I'll ever buy" in the HT3. Can anyone chime in on what the real sonic differences between an HT3 and Songtower pair of speakers is? Both are raved about, for accurate reproduction and clarity, and it would seem the only real difference is a few Hz of bottom end extension for all practical purposes (in a simple line of thought that says the Songtower is superb from 38hz on up).

To be quite honest, this may end up being easier than it looks. My wife and I both prefer the shape of the HT3 over the regular box format of the others in the lineup, and in no small part due to the beautiful custom pieces you all have ordered and posted on this forum. But, there's a lot of value to be had in trading out the custom HT3's, to 2 pair of ST and maybe a sub, and man what a dilemma.  With HT3's, do you stick with HTC and HT1 for a 5.1, or can you use a Monster center and HT1? I'm unsure of the relative merit of HTC vs Monster, and the ST are easy, its a whole lineup.

If anyone wants to throw out some ideas/votes on what types of finishes I should be looking at, by all means go ahead. I'm partial to the burled walnut I've seen on here, as well as some rosewood. Never seen the two together, I wonder if that would work. I love the dark elegance of walnut, but I also like the red tones as well. Also, I'm in the DC metro area, if anyone can chime in about *any* Salk speakers they may own and I could have a listen, please let me know. Thanks much all for your time.

[MaxCast]

Would you use this for HT only?  If so, I imagine you will be using bass management and the added bass the HT3 has wouldn't be utilized.  A set of HT1's, center, and sub may be a wiser choice.

[rahimlee54]

If you want the alot of the bass and clarity of the HT3s you may want to look at the HT2 TLs.  I have heard the Song Towers and they are great, so the jump up the chain should be really really good.  The new HT2s go down around 32 Hz I think, dont quote me, and Jim said they were clearer, had better imaging ,and more slam than the STs.  Plus more driver so they can go louder.  You should give tell him your situation and ask him for suggestions.  What would you drive everything with?  If you have an AVR I am not sure you would be able to do the HT3s justice, but you would be fine with either the HT2s or STs.  The amp would add even more to your already stretched budget with the HT3s.

Jared

[evan1]

I came from the 760's to the Songtowers and never looked back. My nieghbor owns the HT3's . Look him up and send him a PM and he will tell you all about the HT3's . His screen name is "JBTRIO"

[jsalk]

floresjc -

I think Jared makes some very good points.  The HT2-TL's might be the best bet for you.  The HT3's really benefit from a high-powered amp.  The HT2-TL's, on the other hand, are very easy to drive.  You can still use the HTC or a sealed HT2 for the center channel.  You get a ribbon tweeter just like the HT3's and you get the same great W18's that are used as the midrange in the HT3's. The only thing you don't get is the bass extension of the HT3's.  But you will probably be using a sub for HT anyway, so that is not an issue.  And for music, you will probably not want to use a sub as the HT2's will play low enough.

I hope that helps.

- Jim

[R Swerdlow]

floresjc

If you're in the DC metro area, you could listen to my SongTower QWTs, with the standard dome tweeters.  That would be a start.  I'm in Gaithersburg.

I can't argue with what Jim says about the HT2 TLs.  I've been curious to hear them myself.

I'm not sure what Dennis Murphy (in Bethesda) has presently, other than his SongTowers.  But he would be a good source of info about the HT2 and HT3.

Richard

[floresjc]

May I ask what an HT2-TL is? I only see HT2 on the Products section, and its a tower profile 2 way speaker. Is TL some new variant of that? I appreciate all the responses and have given me some good things to think about. I actually was looking at getting separates from Outlaw, with 125w being the tgt power range. I also had given a cursory glance over at AVAhifi, to see what kinds of things are in my price range. I'll do some more research and check back with you all.

[DMurphy]

Howdy  Why don't you just stop by my house and take a listen to the HT3, ST's, a prototype HT4, and the non-TL HT2.  Unfortunately, I only have one of those (except the ST's--I actually have a pair).  I'm in the Glen Echo MD area between MacArthur Blvd. and Mass Ave. 

[floresjc]

DMurphy -

You live in the DC area?? Wow, completely missed that. I certainly may come for a visit, sounds like you have a range of products to help me make my decision. And I'd be perhaps one of the lucky few to hear an HT4 (I saw the big thread on this), the fabled unicorn that it is. The line that keeps catching my eye is the V3. HT3 or very very near HT3 performance, at a much more affordable cost for customs cabs. I would prefer to run 3 ways, but, I'll definitely have to check out the songtowers up close. I'll send you a PM if I can figure it out. Thanks.

[OgOgilby]

There is a growing review thread about the HT2 TL's on this forum: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65845.0

I have the RS750 fronts and rears, with RSC200 center. I was also lusting after the HT3's as "the last pair of speakers I'll ever buy". After speaking with Jim Salk I decided to go with the HT2 TL's and the sealed horizontal HT2 for the center channel. For the time being I will use the RS750's for the rear channels. I recommend giving Jim a call.

Good luck with your decision!

[Nuance]

Welcome to the Salk forum, floresjc.  Whatever you chose, it will be a huge step up from the 750's (I owned a pair a while back).

Concerning power, you may want to rethink the 125 wpc.  No matter which speaker you choose, I highly recommend 200 wpc or so.  This will give you enough headroom and will ensure transients don't clip your amp.  For the HT3's I'd take nothing less than 200 wpc; more if you can swing it.

How big is the room the speakers will reside in?

[satfrat]

Hi floresjc, you sound hell bent on the HT-3's and I'm willing to bet after hearing both them and the Songtowers, you're gonna want the "big boys" along with a more powerful HT amp to power your system. I will say from the 1 time I heard the HT-3's with the HTC center channel speaker, it was the best integration of a center channel speaker with the mains that I've ever heard and this was for music! I can't imagine any other center that could possibly match up better for the HT-3 than the HTC, I liked what I heard that much. Enjoy your audition floresjc.

Cheers,
Robin

[floresjc]

Well, the 125 wpc was sort of arbirtary. Right now, I'm pushing 75 solid, and the speaker I currently have respond well. I figured 50 more certainly would be enough for most speakers, although the 200wpc is in my mind, the ideal target. It seems that many amps have a big jump in price to go from 125ish up to 200, and like I said, for the systems I have used, I couldn't justify 75 watts of headroom at such a premium. If I go with the HT3's, I'd power as appropriate.

I certainly would be up for discussing pre/pro and amps, or even SS vs tube (I've never ventured into tube but it seems rather popular on this forum). Right now I'm exploring options, and I certainly want to get what's best, which to me, means supporting master craftsman like Jim and Frank Van Alstine with their speakers and amps. The fact that not only can you get quality products, but great customer service and have direct line of talk to the owners is a great, and rare thing. 

To give you an idea, the basement of my townhouse is 18x20 and thats where the system currently resides. I'd say I sit about 9-10ft from the system, about in the middle of the room. Currently, I have no sub. The RS760's are a nice full range speaker for the price, and push out enough low end to keep my wife and I happy. It by no means is the end all, be all of quality sound though, but quite better than a Sony box set.

We use the HT mainly for movies/tv, and I do a fair amount of 2 channel listening myself (my wife does not enjoy just listening to music with nothing going on, but will listen with me while she sews or otherwise). We both grew up playing musical instruments, and I have a fair idea of what I want the system to sound like. Overall, I want the bass to be substantial and musical, but not too boomy. I'd like the highs to be present and clear, but not harsh. I played the drums for 10 years, and I really appreciate a system that can accurately depict the kick drum, and the cut and decay of cymbal patterns and crashes and the swish of brushes along a snare. Which is why I'm turning to a builder like Jim Salk in all likelihood, while the Onix kit is certainly a good value for the average consumer, it does not do these things quite as well as I'd like and appreciate.

Because I place a pretty good premium on accurate, full range music reproduction, I tend to favor 3 channel systems for extended range. I certainly will not discount the ST or HT2, as I'm sure they are quite the speakers, and can do at least as well, if not better than my RS760's, which I believe are rated down to 38hz.

On another note for the AVAhifi amps, I don't believe he sells processors to decode Dolby or DTS, as he concentrates on the hifi music market. If anyone can recommend something to pair with his electronics (or if he does indeed offer these processors), let me know.

[R Swerdlow]

… We use the HT mainly for movies/tv, and I do a fair amount of 2 channel listening myself (my wife does not enjoy just listening to music with nothing going on, but will listen with me while she sews or otherwise). We both grew up playing musical instruments, and I have a fair idea of what I want the system to sound like. Overall, I want the bass to be substantial and musical, but not too boomy. I'd like the highs to be present and clear, but not harsh. I played the drums for 10 years, and I really appreciate a system that can accurately depict the kick drum, and the cut and decay of cymbal patterns and crashes and the swish of brushes along a snare. Which is why I'm turning to a builder like Jim Salk in all likelihood, while the Onix kit is certainly a good value for the average consumer, it does not do these things quite as well as I'd like and appreciate.

You've come to the right place.  Dennis Murphy is a semipro violinist and also plays piano.  He regularly plays in orchestras in the DC area.  I think he will understand exactly where you are coming from and he may very well share your particular audio tastes.  Jim Salk also has a long history with the recording side of music.  I believe (but am not certain) that he played trumpet when he was younger.

On another note for the AVAhifi amps, I don't believe he sells processors to decode Dolby or DTS, as he concentrates on the hifi music market. If anyone can recommend something to pair with his electronics (or if he does indeed offer these processors), let me know.

You are correct.  AVA does not make HT preamp/processors.  Why not decide on speakers first?  Then you can go about choosing amps and preamps knowing the power requirements of your speakers.

[BoB/335]

I am into power just as mich as anyone else. I have a very powerful PA system for a band so I know what watts can do for a sound.

With that said I have to say that I powered a pair of ST's for an audition with MY Denon2309 at 100 watts per channel and I thought it sounded great. I know it could probably sound better with more watts but I would have no complaints cranking up a pair with my receiver.

I had a chance to hear HT3's the same day as the ST's and I must say that the HT3's were a considerably better, smoother sound that you could listen to all day. Not so sure it's worth THAT cost difference "to me". But WOW!  Also it seems that you need a considerable distance behind them. Now the HT2 TL's seem to be an amazing compromise that I have hopes of hearing one day.

[Nuance]

Floresjc,

Thanks for the information.  Your room is about as big as mine, so 125-150 watts should be quite suffucient for the SongTower's.  For the HT2's I'd got at least 150, and for the HT3's no less than 200.  Again, this is just my opinion.  The way I see it, your system is only as good as the weakest link, and if you get Salk speakers the speakers will NOT be that weak link so why not give them the juice they deserve?  YMMV, of course.

I agree with Swerd, though; figure out the speaker situation, then once you've placed your order figure out the amp and preamp situation.  We'll all be here to help with that when that time comes.    Still, I am curious - does your receiver have preout connections?

[floresjc]

Nuance -

My receiver does have 7.1 RCA pre-outs on it. I know, I know, I'm way too anxious about the whole thing, but I just love looking at all the pieces. I hear really good things about Emotiva, and I may consider their a/v decoder which is such a great price. I could probly just use my receiver as the processor, but it doesn't do the new Dolby TruHD formats and the high end DTS equivalent, nor does it do HDMI switching. It will probly be relegated to second tier duty in the bedroom or computer room.

[adydula]

Floresjc,

Welcome!!

I have a pair of Songtowers, had them for several weeks now and they are just great.

I use them for 2 ch audio and HT.

In the HT situation your going to absolutley want to have something that will handle ALL the new sound formats on Blu-Ray and HD (now dead, but dont know if you went that route)...so make sure your electronics will decode and play these formats....I am sure your well aware how 'good' these can be when wathing a movie or a live concert in TrueHD etc...( I have an OPPO BD 83 for a player and its very nice...).

I use a year old Onkyo 805, 130 watts @ 8 ohms...with the Songs its very aedequate...I agree with  most in that having a lot of clean power available cant hurt...especially with speakers that can play very low...and if you like LOUD movies etc....it wont hurt!

You can most likely go to your local audio hi-fi dealer and do an overnight loaner and try it our for yourself.....the local stores where I am located will do this if your semi-serious about buying from them. I did this several times over the years and was quite surprised on how little power is needed to make fine sounds!!

I had three different vendors 200W + amps over the last few years....

If your using a sub in your HT, and set up your bass management this takes a load off the electronics etc...

If you can afford it get the 200w amp!!

All the best
Alex

[Nuance]

Nuance -

My receiver does have 7.1 RCA pre-outs on it. I know, I know, I'm way too anxious about the whole thing, but I just love looking at all the pieces. I hear really good things about Emotiva, and I may consider their a/v decoder which is such a great price. I could probly just use my receiver as the processor, but it doesn't do the new Dolby TruHD formats and the high end DTS equivalent, nor does it do HDMI switching. It will probly be relegated to second tier duty in the bedroom or computer room.

Trust me, trying to find the "right" pair of speakers for ourselves makes us all anxious.  It's something us A/V nuts have all been through/are going through.  Welcome to the club. 

Not to take the focus off the speakers, but have you thought about using a cheaper receiver for HT duties (something with the new codecs and preouts) and investing in a nice 2-channel preamp and amp for music?  If your preamp has HT bypass, then you can hook them all up in conjunction and just flip the one off that you aren't using.  In my opinion there are only a few processors available that are completely trouble free (especially concerning HDMI), so this would be a "different" approach, but a very effective and less costly one.  And if you want to use a subwoofer with music, there are even a few fairly priced 2-channel preamps with a subwoofer output.

I am a little biased because the above method is the one I am taking, but I feel it's the best approach for someone with a budget in mind.  However, if you've got money to blow, just ignore me. 

[sanlanman]

DMurphy -

You live in the DC area?? Wow, completely missed that. I certainly may come for a visit, sounds like you have a range of products to help me make my decision. And I'd be perhaps one of the lucky few to hear an HT4 (I saw the big thread on this), the fabled unicorn that it is. The line that keeps catching my eye is the V3. HT3 or very very near HT3 performance, at a much more affordable cost for customs cabs. I would prefer to run 3 ways, but, I'll definitely have to check out the songtowers up close. I'll send you a PM if I can figure it out. Thanks.

BY ALL MEANS, take advantage of Dennis Murphy's offer. Also, if going up all the way to the HT3's is beyond what you want to do, (it was for me) also by all means consider the V3s (which is what I have, plus a reduced size center channel nick named the V monster Jr. Dennis has the V Monster and likes to poke fun at my Jr.) At the time I was considering Salk speakers, I was in the Detroit metro area briefly and got a listen to ST and HT3s side by side and the V3s later at Pete's house. I was not able to audition the HT2 and the HT2-TL had not been designed or at least announce yet.

Do what you like, but from what you and others have posted, I would suggest narrowing your focus to an L-C-R arrangement of V3s (3 way) and VMonster (or Junior) or an L-C-R arrangement consisting of HT2-TLs (MTM 2 way) and HT2 sealed monitor built sideways as center channel. My V3s appearance differs somewhat from the original V3s posted on the Salk site. You can see pictures of mine in the Salk Owners Thread at the top of this forum board at reply posts #73,76, and 91. Mine are so amazingly clear and focused that I am impressed everytime I listen. I power mine with a Cary Cinema 5 amp at 200 watts/channel, but my weak link is the 5 year old Yamaha reciever I am using as a temporary pre/pro. Like you, I am contemplating the forthcoming processors from Emotiva, but I also plan to insert a good 2 channel preamp with Home Theater pass through and hook all my 2 channel equipment to that, IE: turntable, CD player, Cassette deck, (yes I still have one). An OPPO BDP-83 blu ray player is in my future for HT duty as well. I just can't justify putting major money into an HT pre/pro when the technology and feature set keeps changing at such a rapid pace, so the Emotiva processors have my attention right now.

Frank Van Alstine concentrates his efforts on top quality equipment at a realistic price in the 2 channel world. Considering his equipment as a part of your system would be a smart move too.