Trying to figure out if a Cornet 2 will work for me.

theclipper · « **on:** 19 Mar 2009, 02:44 am »

Hello,

I just stumbled onto this forum and learned of these products. I am in the market for a phono stage so I figured this would be a good place to start.

I am a budding audiophile that has begun to really get into the gear. The only thing I really ever listen to is vinyl. My system currently consists of Klipsch Forte II speakers, Fisher 400 Receiver, and a Rega P5 (w/Ortofon 2M Black cart). I have been told that the Fisher is really lacking in the phono department. So I wanted to give a separate phono stage a shot.

I have never built a kit before but recently just bought a soldering iron. I still have not tried to use it yet, but I have been told it isn't that hard to learn to solder.

I was initially looking at a Bottlehead Seduction phono stage kit as I had never even heard of the Cornet before. But then on another forum someone told me to check it out. So I was just trying to get a feel about whether this stage would have good synergy with my gear, and what the pros and cons might be against the Bottlehead Seduction. Also, I don't entirely understand the kit for the Cornet 2, do I order that and then have to order additional parts? If so, how much does that come to? Also, how tricky is it to build one of these kits?

Well, if you guys have any advice or comments for me I would love to hear them. Please let me know if I can provide any more information about myself or my setup.

Thanks so much!
-Clipper

galyons · « **Reply #1 on:** 19 Mar 2009, 03:33 am »

Quote from: theclipper on 19 Mar 2009, 02:44 am

Hello,

I just stumbled onto this forum and learned of these products. I am in the market for a phono stage so I figured this would be a good place to start.

Welcome. This is a great place to start!

Quote from: theclipper on 19 Mar 2009, 02:44 am

I am a budding audiophile that has begun to really get into the gear. The only thing I really ever listen to is vinyl. My system currently consists of Klipsch Forte II speakers, Fisher 400 Receiver, and a Rega P5 (w/Ortofon 2M Black cart). I have been told that the Fisher is really lacking in the phono department. So I wanted to give a separate phono stage a shot.

Your Fisher is one of my favorite tube receivers. Hope that you have a good supply of 12AX7's! The phono stage was designed for MM cartridges with spec's centering on 4.4mV. Use the Low, not the High, which was designed for ceramic carts. That being said, a quality separate phono stage would be more than a quantum leap improvement.

Quote from: theclipper on 19 Mar 2009, 02:44 am

I have never built a kit before but recently just bought a soldering iron. I still have not tried to use it yet, but I have been told it isn't that hard to learn to solder.

You need to learn to solder. A little practice goes a long way in building a quality product, regardless of the brand. Take a look at these videos, http://www.solder.net/technical/tips.asp

Quote from: theclipper on 19 Mar 2009, 02:44 am

I was initially looking at a Bottlehead Seduction phono stage kit as I had never even heard of the Cornet before. But then on another forum someone told me to check it out. So I was just trying to get a feel about whether this stage would have good synergy with my gear, and what the pros and cons might be against the Bottlehead Seduction. Also, I don't entirely understand the kit for the Cornet 2, do I order that and then have to order additional parts? If so, how much does that come to? Also, how tricky is it to build one of these kits?

The C2 circuit is far superior to any circuit in your Fisher. The Cornet2 is not really a kit. It is a very well designed circuit on a top quality board. Yes, you have to purchase the components elsewhere, but Jim provides a great shopping list. Go to the http://www.hagtech.com/cornet2.html website and download the C2 manual. Read it.

I previously built a Bottlehead Foreplay line stage. Nice, but, quite honestly, there is no comparison between the Bottlehead products and Jim's boards. Firstly, the Bottlehead's are all point-to-point wiring, much more difficult to do well for beginner, IMO, then board "through hole soldering". Secondly, the circuit design is far more sophisticated in the C2. We are taking "Raisins to Watermelons", not apples to oranges!

Quote from: theclipper on 19 Mar 2009, 02:44 am

Well, if you guys have any advice or comments for me I would love to hear them. Please let me know if I can provide any more information about myself or my setup.

What mods, if any, have been done to the Fisher? Where are you located?

Cheers,
Geary

WGH · « **Reply #2 on:** 19 Mar 2009, 04:18 am »

I owned both the Bottlehead Seduction and C2 at the same time. It ended up to be a three note comparison, after three notes it was clear the was C2 superior; deeper more controlled bass, clearer highs, better imaging, deeper soundstage, I could go on and on but you get the idea. The C2 is easy to build too. I sold the Seduction and kept the C2.

Wayne

theclipper · « **Reply #3 on:** 19 Mar 2009, 05:23 am »

Wow guys, thanks for the responses.

I am starting to get an idea what the better buy would be

How much does this end up costing typically after completing the shopping list?

I haven't done any mods to the Fisher, it was completely restored though. I am thinking I will upgrade my JJ tubes in the line stage to some nice Tung Sol 5751s though. I have loved the Fisher but am now experiencing a very annoying hum coming out of the left channel. It just started after I moved. The hum is present on any of the inputs even when nothing is connected. At first I thought the left channel was totally dead but that was just from one of the front switches being a little stuck. I have since played with the switches and nothing is getting rid of the hum. Any ideas of what I could try? I also switched around the outputs and 12AX7s and it appears that the tubes are not the issue.

Is there anything else I should know? Will this stage mate well with my cart? It outputs at 5.5mV.

I am currently located in Seattle. I will take a look at that soldering video and think I will pick up some solder this weekend and begin to practice. Does this kit come with detailed instructions?

Anything other info from me that would help in my decision?

Thank you,
Clipper

WGH · « **Reply #4 on:** 19 Mar 2009, 05:53 am »

Just guessing, but the Cornet2 might cost around $500 in it's stock form.
I probably have about $750 into mine because I used the Lansing case and the Mundorf Silver/Oil and Sonicap Gen1 and Platinum caps ($200 extra for the caps). Some are even using naked resistors for the ultimate C2.

Detailed instructions? Well...yes and no. The instructions are very good and I had no problems but for a newbie I don't know. I hear that preparing the chassis may be the hardest part. You can check them out yourself by downloading a manual located towards the bottom of the Cornet2 page:
http://www.hagtech.com/cornet2.html

W.

theclipper · « **Reply #5 on:** 19 Mar 2009, 05:58 am »

Wow I didn't realize you had to drill the holes yourself. What kind of drill is even used to drill holes that wide?

WGH · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 Mar 2009, 03:25 pm »

The easiest and most accurate tool to drill the 1.25" and 1.375" holes is a step drill bit.

http://www.laner.com/cgi-bin/wwiz.asp?wwizmstr=MVES.SEE&pid=WEB-SPECS*30912-VB12&u=wwizmstr=MVES.SEARCH|pcat=TOOL3&pcat=TOOL3&x2=23&sku=120389

W.

theclipper · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 Mar 2009, 04:14 pm »

Man, thats expensive.

I wish the Cornet2 came with pre drilled chasis. I think I would be all over it in a heartbeat then.

Are you guys pretty convinced that the sound will really be much nicer than the Bottlehead?

Thanks,
-Clipper

WGH · « **Reply #8 on:** 19 Mar 2009, 04:49 pm »

I got one of the last pre-drilled chassis from Jim, shoot him an email, maybe he found another in his pile of stuff.

As for the sound, think:

vs.

and you get the general difference.

galyons · « **Reply #9 on:** 19 Mar 2009, 04:56 pm »

Quote from: theclipper on 19 Mar 2009, 04:14 pm

Man, thats expensive.

I wish the Cornet2 came with pre drilled chasis. I think I would be all over it in a heartbeat then.

Are you guys pretty convinced that the sound will really be much nicer than the Bottlehead?

Thanks,
-Clipper

The Bottlehead is a nice, simple design. It will get you started on the slippery road to high end music reproduction. It is a kit. It costs $280 and there is a several weeks delivery delay. It uses 6DJ*/6922's. You will want "better" and move up after a time.

The Cornet2 is not a kit. It is a sophisticated design cleanly implemented on a high quality board. It may very well be the only MM phono stage you ever need to buy. Progressively upgrading components puts its performance on the same level as $2-4K branded phono stages.

You have to decide. If having to drill holes plus soldering is worrisome, I suggest you buy a new or used inexpensive phono stage.

Cheers,
Geary

miter53 · « **Reply #10 on:** 19 Mar 2009, 05:08 pm »

I have a C2 and a Bottlehead FP3, and they are both excellent kits. I have not heard the Seduction (which is now being replaced with the Eros), but I can't imagine it would beat my C2 with the upgraded components I used. I already knew how to solder, but it's not that difficult to learn. The C2 is probably easier than the point to point wired Bottlehead, but the instructions provided with Bottlehead kits are the picture of clarity and detail. Jim's instructions are a little bit less detailed, but you are mostly just plugging components into a excellently designed and fabricated PC board. I thought the hardest part was prepping the chassis, and I have a woodshop w/ a drillpress at my disposal. The step drills work, but I trashed my first attempt at the top (it became the bottom) before getting it right the second time. If I were doing it again, I would use http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/. I used them for another project, and was extremely pleased with the results. They supply easy to use software to do the layout, and will either supply the material, or use panels that you supply. If you use the Lansing enclosure, which I recommend, you can just send them the top, front and back, and the will cut them to your specs, including any lettering you want to add. Very clean results.

jameshuls · « **Reply #11 on:** 19 Mar 2009, 08:23 pm »

I have only directly compared my C2 to a Parasound Phono Pre (my first phono pre - still a bargain at $150 new), but it definitely was quite a leap up! As for the difficulty, I think the circuit board is quite easy to populate, especially if going fairly stock. I used boutique film caps, and they were quite a tight fit, but there is lots of real estate available. I initially made the Hagerman Piccolo Phono Step-up, as I use MC cartridges. This was the first project I ever soldered, but it went well! This was a good warm-up for the Cornet board, which my brother and I completed in a few evenings. Conversely, I have been working on my custom wood, copper and brass enclosure for 6 months now with probably another few to go! I had to buy over $600 in wood and metal working tools just to make it! Obsessive perfectionism gets expensive. However, if you take the sane route and make it stock (with upgraded siganal caps of course - the Russian NOS teflon and PIOs are getting great reviews and and are very cheap - I have a bunch, but have yet to implement them) and have the case drilled for you, it is very straight forward. On the other hand if you make the DIY leap, I used a step bit as WGH recommended and it worked flawlessly for drilling my copper toplate (the lansing chassis is aluminum, although it should be as easy to drill as copper). Overall, I think there is not a better designed, or sounding product on the market! As soon as I finish the chassis for the Cornet, I will be starting on the Chime DAC, followed by the Clarinet Preamp - I'm hooked! Thus, the only caveat - careful going down this road - DIY IS ADDICTIVE!

theclipper · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 Mar 2009, 03:26 pm »

How would you guys compare the original cornet to the Cornet 2?

I could bypass the DIY route and not have to deal with any drilling if I were to buy it from a guy that has one for sale? I'm just wondering if the original is much of a step down from this newer version?

Thanks,
Chris

tubesforever · « **Reply #13 on:** 21 Mar 2009, 06:35 am »

Welcome Chris!

Sorry I have been so inundated with work and personal projects. For a while today, I thought I might never make it over to the party!

Anyhow, here is my take on things.

First the C2 is a major improvement over the C model. Jim Hagerman runs a 12au7 tube as a buffer. This allows you to run longer IC connections without so many sonic issues. With the C2 you are getting a much improved constant voltage circuit to the buffer tubes. In English this means you can use IC's of any brand and any length and get great results. With the C model you would want really short IC's between your C and your line stage.

I would be happy to show you what goes into doing the chassis work if you don't want to do it yourself. Email me privately at [email protected]. I will send you some pictures of the process and with the tools to get this done right.

The nice thing is you can build this C2 to whatever budget you set, and then modify it over time to sound as good or better than a world class phono stage. My C2 has outplayed a Pass Xono, a Manley Steelhead, a Lamm, a Thor, and matched up well to the Wave Light equipment. These cost 5k to 10k dollars. I have only about 900 dollars of parts and pieces in my C2.

You can build it your way! You have folks here that will answer any questions that arise and Jim Hagerman will answer your personal emails and has even done direct problem solving for a couple of folks here.

You are in good hands!

arossphoto · « **Reply #14 on:** 25 Feb 2010, 08:29 pm »

Quote from: jameshuls on 19 Mar 2009, 08:23 pm

I have been working on my custom wood, copper and brass enclosure for 6 months now with probably another few to go! I had to buy over $600 in wood and metal working tools just to make it! Obsessive perfectionism gets expensive.

Did you ever finish this? I'm considering a C2 and want to build a custom wood enclosure for it as well, so I would love to see some pics of yours. It sounds like it should be gorgeous!

jameshuls · « **Reply #15 on:** 25 Feb 2010, 09:29 pm »

Well, not only does obsessive perfectionism cost money, it takes lots of time!!!

I have been slowly working away at it, but was slowed up by some design roadblocks for the inner structure. Essentially, the circuit board is encompassed by a brass and copper structure which then rests on brass points embedded in the outer wood structure so that all the workings can easily be lifted free and tweaked on a regular basis. This means all external connections (power, RCAs) must be connected to the inner structure as well, but must be accessible from the outside. Plus, I still want to maintain my aesthetic design objective. Does that make sense? Sound complicated? It is! One of the hardest parts has been tapping machine screw holes in the copper pieces. Copper is so soft that it binds the taps and then SNAP! They break. Blind hole spiral fluted taps are not cheap either, and in my case have to be ordered at $20 a piece plus UPS shipping (another $30). Since I have snapped two, I am at a standstill until I order more. Before doing that I have been doing some research on how to tap copper. There are some tricks that make it easier. I plan on ordering the taps in a few weeks and hopefully have my Cornet completed by the beginning of May. We have a new baby coming around June 1st, plus looking after the yard and garden all summer. This means no time for audio projects.

I guess I should post some pics of my progress thus far, so folks don't think I am pulling a snufflelufagus

amandarae · « **Reply #16 on:** 25 Feb 2010, 11:21 pm »

Quote from: WGH on 19 Mar 2009, 04:49 pm

I got one of the last pre-drilled chassis from Jim, shoot him an email, maybe he found another in his pile of stuff.

As for the sound, think:

vs.

and you get the general difference.

This contrast sums it up for me as well! I had Pass Labs Xono, and Hagerman Trumpet before. As for the former, it is a very good phono preamp but to me, phono preamp has to be tube base.

The Trumpet is nice, no doubt and can be had used if you look around. I ended up with the Cornet 2. Read, learn, and listen if you can, then make your decision. I'm speaking only for myself, the Cornet 2 sounds nice and for the price it commands, it gives a tremendous value!

best of luck !

Abe

jameshuls · « **Reply #17 on:** 25 Feb 2010, 11:42 pm »

I had originally ordered the recommended case for the Cornet, but once I had the electronics built and listened to it as a bare circuit board for a few months I realized that the wonderful sound this unit creates needed a chassis worthy of its class!

I enjoy taking on complex engineering projects, so my prolonged build actually brings me a great deal of pleasure. When it all starts coming together it is just so rewarding. Of course, the final and ultimate reward will be putting the completed custom unit back into my system. It will be worth the wait!

If you do build it stock, it is quite straightforward and should only take a few weeks to build.

arossphoto · « **Reply #18 on:** 25 Feb 2010, 11:53 pm »

Quote from: jameshuls on 25 Feb 2010, 11:42 pm

I had originally ordered the recommended case for the Cornet, but once I had the electronics built and listened to it as a bare circuit board for a few months I realized that the wonderful sound this unit creates needed a chassis worthy of its class!

I like the idea of a custom chassis as well, and want to build one that will match a walnut plinth I recently finished for my rebuilt Lenco. Aesthetics are very important to me and I hate cable clutter, which is one reason I prefer the C2 over the Bottlehead phono stages. Do you guys know if there are any technical or safety related requirements to use a metal top plate for the C2 chassis, or could you also use wood? I asked the same question about the BH Seduction as was told a metal top plate was necessary and provided some shielding.

jameshuls · « **Reply #19 on:** 26 Feb 2010, 12:15 am »

Although I have used a copper top plate, the 4 sides of the enclosure are wood. What I have done is taken light gauge copper plate and attached it to the inside of the wood panels. It provides the necessary shielding and looks killer to boot! I just scrubbed it with some steel wool to give it a nice warm brushed finish - it looks quite striking against the nearly black wenge of the sides and the red bloodwood of the front. Of course, no one can see it unless they lift the electronics etc out, but I will see it and know it is there!