[indiesound]

Hi i am a newbie. I was recently able to get a Squeezebox Duet at a Circuit City for $200. I started to read about mods and upgrades, gradually stepping up in price. I was thinking about buying the Ultimate power supply, getting a digital mod and running to a (TADAC) DAC. ($1475 total cost.)

 However, i have read all the glowing reviews about the Modwright TP. I am sure that many of you used to own modded SB w/ Ultimate PS combos and can describe whether the difference is subtle or not so subtle. The price difference is over $2300.

I own a pair of Usher BE 718s and have a Running Springs Haley due to arrive. However, i am waiting on my DAC/Preamp combo (1K), the next gen TADAC by Tube Audio Design and their 200W Solid state monoblocks that "supposedly sound like tubes" (1K for the pair, new).  I will also buy GIK room acoustics panels, probably purchase Anticables and have not decided whether to use MAC power cords or maybe the Lessloss mini (their cheaper version).

Now also place this in context with a "bang for the buck" improvement. Is my equipment too low grade for the expensive MW TP? Or will i do better to upgrade the amps or pre to feed my power hungry speakers. I may still be able to cancel the order for my pre/DAC and amps. The pre/dac may automatically use the DAC when using the linestage. therefore, i'd also need to purchase a preamp.

I've been able to purchase almost everything for around 1k, save $1800 for the speakers. I've tried to be careful as i do not make much money. Would it be better to skimp on the power cords and use MAC cables and get the MW TP? In other words, would spending the $2300 elsewhere in my system make a bigger difference, or would it be better spent on the MW TP?

So how much of a "night and day" difference is there between the two? Let me specify, using an Ultimate power supply, at least version 2, 3 or 4  as other ps are described as quite different sounding, even in Bolder circle posts.


(i read that the difference was huge using the modded Elpac as tested by Dan himself, however the Ultimate PS IV is a $950 power supply as compared to the $150 modded Elpac and posts on the Bolder circle describe the difference between the Ultimate and the ElPAC as "night and day".)

This is turning out to be a very difficult decision for me, and i'd practically have to change around my whole system around for it. For $1475, the SB and Ultimate sound like great "bang for the buck", but i do not want to feel like i am missing something sonically.
I've read that the MW TP sounds practically the same as vinyl, with the modded SB w/ DAC and Ultimate PS will i lose a lot of detail? Apparently the TADAC is supposed to be great, very analog sounding and non fatiguing too (tube dac), so i wondering exactly where the big differences will be.


Thanks for your help.

(Sorry if this is not a direct Modwright questions, but i felt this was the best forum to ask the question).
PS- any previous owners-- how much of a difference is the summit cable and bybee filters, they are probably too costly for me--

[Bigfish]

Hello Indiesound:

Welcome and Wow, a piece of advice that people on AC gave me when I started, take your time and enjoy the journey! 

Prior to owning the ModWright Transporter I owned a Bolder Modded Squeezebox and Bolder Modded Elpac Power Supply.  I was considering the Ultimate Power Supply when Dan introduced the ModWright Transporter.  My opinion in considering a ModWright Transporter or going with the Modded Squeezebox Route I would think about the following:

ModWright Transporter:

With the Platinum level of Mods, the addition of a NOS or EML Rectifier Tube and Tung-Sol 6SN7 Round Plate signal tubes it is probably the best streaming source on the planet. 

It is a one box streaming solution!  Connect a power cord and two ICs to your preamp and you are set.

You can experiment with tubes to tailor the sound of your system.


Modified Squeezebox/Duet

You have a choice to run a digital signal from the Squeezebox/Duet to a DAC or connect it to your system with RCA's.  If you want to connect it directly to your system the Squeezebox/Duet will needs mods to produce high quality sound. 

In addition to mods for the Squeezebox/Duet you will need a high quality power supply.  If you elect to go with an Ultimate Power Supply you will need an AC Cord and DC cord to connect from the wall to the power supply and then to the Squeezebox. 


If you have the money I would recommend the ModWright Transporter.  With the Squeezebox you can add levels of mods, go with a DAC and/or better power supplies over time to produce very good sound.

Good Luck on your journey,

Ken

[Philistine]

Wow, a lot of questions to answer, here goes:

Source
In my view getting the source right is a critical first step, so focusing on this is going in the right direction.

Modwright vs Bolder
I have owned a similar SB configuration to Ken and now have the MWTP, in the past I have demoed the Ultimate Power Supply.  I don't think it's a question of which is better, they are both different paths to the same end point.
The MWTP is a one box solution, the Bolder path is a modular multi-box approach that allows you to add to as your demands/resources allow.
Advantages the TP has that might tip your decision - it supports Hi-Rez sampling rates, has balanced XLR outputs.
The MWTP with the stock tubes give you great sound, but with tube rolling it gives you phenomenal sound so you might want to factor in $ for future tube rolling.

In essence I'm agreeing with Ken.

I have a Duet/Controller in another system, and find this combination to be less robust on a wireless network than the TP.  Over on the SlimDevices forum many Duet users are pulling their hair out in frustration with the Duet.  SD are pointing the finger at customers home networks and yet these networks work fine with other devices.  The only reason I raise this is I have identical issues - a wireless network that is flawless with other devices (including the TP, Boom and SqueezeBox3) and is a disaster with the Duet/Contoller.  The reason I mention this is that I would check that the Duet has good reliabilty in your environment before investing $ into it. 

Good luck with your choice.

[indiesound]

Phillistine, thanks for your help. Did not know that the Duet had wireless issues. Would be willing to use a straight Ethernet connection, except that i like to use my computer while i listen to music. Is there a device that will create 2 jacks from one without using wireless?

It is a big concern that i will invest a lot into say a SB or TP and that it could be obsolete in 5 years. Perhaps Blu-ray audio will be the future?

From many here in this forum, the MW TP is second to none. Since you have demoed the Ultimate PS w/ SB, how did it compare? Please pm me if you feel more comfortable that way.

Are there any owners in the Baltimore/ DC area? (where i reside). Perhaps it is best for me to audition both units and then decide.

It is still a difficult decision for me. $3800 is not a small amount of money, yet the improvement is supposedly VERY significant.

Is there a relatively cheap preamp anyone can recommend? Will using the Burson buffer provide optimal results? Maybe i should sell my Running Springs Haley?

Thanks!

[Philistine]

Many people have had success with the Duet/Controller wireless, if you check the SlimDevices forum you will also see that many have issues - my intention was not to scare you off but to bring your attention to it before investing money in the Duet.  If you intend to choose the wireless I would check compatibility with the Duet in your network first of all.  For the ethernet approach  I believe you just need an ethernet router for multiple connections, something like this:

http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=478

I cannot answer the TP vs SB question as I never had both products in the same location at the same time, sorry.

I would try and get as much feedback as possible on this forum in order to get a rounded view on the options you have, and what would work best for you.
Faced with a similar decision to you, I chose the TP as I wanted a one box solution and the option to play hi-rez files.  These two differences were the principal factors impacting my choice, both options would have given me a great source for my system.

 

[indiesound]

I may be able to swing it if i can save substantially on my amplification. I could either get an integrated amp, or i would want to spend less than 1k or around that for a preamp. My speakers prefer 200watts or more, and i was thinking monoblocks, but perhaps a regular amp might be better.

Do you think that it is better to spend my budget on the Modwright with an integrated or cheaper amplification or the other way around, with a cheaper source (Squeezebox) and better amplification?

Finally, would you go with a tube or SS integrated combo? or perhaps a tube pre and ss monoblocks?

Thanks!!

[Philistine]

As you're looking for system advice you might want to broaden this out by posting in the Audio Central Circle, stating what budget you have, music tastes and they type of room you will be using.  You will have a bigger audience and a broader range of opinions.

To address part of your question: going used on equipment is a great way of getting more for your money and, in today's economy, audiophiles are offloading gear they no longer need.

[Bigfish]

As you're looking for system advice you might want to broaden this out by posting in the Audio Central Circle, stating what budget you have, music tastes and they type of room you will be using.  You will have a bigger audience and a broader range of opinions.

To address part of your question: going used on equipment is a great way of getting more for your money and, in today's economy, audiophiles are offloading gear they no longer need.

I agree with Philistine.  There is a lot of excellent used equipment in the market place.  Also I believe more people will see you post on Audio Central. 

Ken

[Bob Wilcox]

Phillistine, thanks for your help. Did not know that the Duet had wireless issues. Would be willing to use a straight Ethernet connection, except that i like to use my computer while i listen to music. Is there a device that will create 2 jacks from one without using wireless?

You could use the ethernet ports on a router but you can also purchase a network switch that will provide additional ethernet ports. This is all it does - it has no router capability. One way to configure the Duet is as wireless bridge. In this configuration, the receiver is attached to the network via ethernet cable and the communication between the controller and receiver is wireless (a dedicated private network requiring no wireless router purchase). I use this method in my basement where my wireless network signal is too weak.

As mentioned, the Transporter will read higher resolution files. The built-in DAC outputs 96/24 but the digital outputs can be used to feed a higher res DAC (in which case you would bypass a lot of the Modwright mods). 

[richidoo]

Hi guys, Bigfish asked me to chime in. Indie, glad you were able to find the Duet at Circuit City closeout prices!!!! It is a very cool transport.  You have received some great responses here, but I will offer my own too since I have owned or heard a lot of the equipment you are asking about.

I believe that speakers are most important, because they are the highest distortion, and will flavor the system more than any other component. You can't cover up annoying speaker personality with a different source. That said, you have made a superb choice. The BE718 is a dynamite little speaker. With your big amps it will give you a lot of satisfaction for a long time.

You have already bought the TAD gear which is also excellent so you are set there. You got the Duet for a great transport. Minimizing jitter is a possibility for you to explore, either in mods to your TADAC or with a jitter removal device between the transport and DAC. Empirical Audio, JISCO, are worth exploring among others you'll find when you start exploring those options.

Wires are next. You mentioned anticable. I owned anticable copper ICs and Anticable speaker wires when I started. I have since upgraded. I found the anticable products to be good for beginner, definitely better than most extension cord type wires, but they are not good enough for the equipment you own. I would recommend midlevel JPS wires. Find a dealer near you and take some home for a free audition. Once you start using JPS you will never use anything else. They make less expensive versions of all kinds of wires so it needn't be too expensive. Another high value wire maker is groverhuffman.com. I use both of these brands in my system. It is fashionable to bash wires, but signal wires are as important as your amps. Spend the money when you can. But always try them at home before paying, or with money back guarantee. There are some companies that cater to this, usedcables.com, or something like that. You can usually resell used wires for same price you bought, but know what it's worth before you buy used.

Power conditioning is important, but I would not use Haley with large power amps. In my house with a dedicated 20A outlet the Haley reduced the performance of tube and SS power amps, large and small. You might have a different experience. I have heard that Hydra and Shunyata can do the same thing with tube amps but I have not tried them myself. Filter type conditioners are frequently used successfully for filtering power to low current components like source or preamp. For high current sources, I prefer a magnetic power conditioner, something like Torus, BPT or Equitech. These use a large transformer to isolate noise and lower the source impedance of the power, giving you your own power generator with no high resistance connections between it and your system. They also provide a power reservoir allowing huge current transients. Do some reading there.

I owned two Duets. I bought them the day they were announced for presale. They were delivered months before others started getting theirs. But both acted erratically with the remote control unit. The issue was the firmware for the remote. Logitech has finally fixed this issue andthe remote supposedly works well now. Be sure to get the latest version of SqueezeCenter. It contains the firmware for player and remote within it and will force an upgrade to those.  You do need a wireless network in your house to use Duet. Supposedly the remote can connect to the player for its wireless connection, but last time I talked to Logitech they were frowning on that use, but coulda been due to the bad firmware. If you have a strong wifi access point then you can run the player wirelessly with no dropouts. Music streaming is not a high bandwidth chore and Duet has a 1.5 minute buffer on uncompressed wav. Give the wireless a try until you hear dropouts (music skips)  then use a hard wire or upgrade your wireless router to Dlink 655

Modwright TP cannot be used as external DAC, the digital input is disabled in the modding. It also can't be connected directly to your amps because the resistor volume pads are defeated too. But with a good preamp, it plays well. As you can tell from the long threads, it also benefits greatly from tube swapping, and the tubes that win are expensive. It is not a budget or beginner's product in my opinion. Your TADAC will get you up to speed to try more advanced gear soon enough.

I would suggest that you get your new equipment running and dialed in before buying much more stuff.
I don't know if this will resonate with you, but you can find a shortcut in picking what's best for you by using your gut. You will know when it feels right. Pay attention to your gut. If you have an uneasy feeling about something no matter what everyone esle says, stay away. Also consider that what's best for you now may not be best a year from now. You need to learn about your room, and yourself before you can appreciate finer equipment. Buying it first will frustrate and reduce your enjoyment. It is a artistic journey, not an applicance purchase. The system evolves over time as you learn more and more, that's the fun of it, as much as listening to music.

[zybar]

Hi guys, Bigfish asked me to chime in. Indie, glad you were able to find the Duet at Circuit City closeout prices!!!! It is a very cool transport.  You have received some great responses here, but I will offer my own too since I have owned or heard a lot of the equipment you are asking about.

I believe that speakers are most important, because they are the highest distortion, and will flavor the system more than any other component. You can't cover up annoying speaker personality with a different source. That said, you have made a superb choice. The BE718 is a dynamite little speaker. With your big amps it will give you a lot of satisfaction for a long time.

You have already bought the TAD gear which is also excellent so you are set there. You got the Duet for a great transport. Minimizing jitter is a possibility for you to explore, either in mods to your TADAC or with a jitter removal device between the transport and DAC. Empirical Audio, JISCO, are worth exploring among others you'll find when you start exploring those options.

Wires are next. You mentioned anticable. I owned anticable copper ICs and Anticable speaker wires when I started. I have since upgraded. I found the anticable products to be good for beginner, definitely better than most extension cord type wires, but they are not good enough for the equipment you own. I would recommend midlevel JPS wires. Find a dealer near you and take some home for a free audition. Once you start using JPS you will never use anything else. They make less expensive versions of all kinds of wires so it needn't be too expensive. Another high value wire maker is groverhuffman.com. I use both of these brands in my system. It is fashionable to bash wires, but signal wires are as important as your amps. Spend the money when you can. But always try them at home before paying, or with money back guarantee. There are some companies that cater to this, usedcables.com, or something like that. You can usually resell used wires for same price you bought, but know what it's worth before you buy used.

Power conditioning is important, but I would not use Haley with large power amps. In my house with a dedicated 20A outlet the Haley reduced the performance of tube and SS power amps, large and small. You might have a different experience. I have heard that Hydra and Shunyata can do the same thing with tube amps but I have not tried them myself. Filter type conditioners are frequently used successfully for filtering power to low current components like source or preamp. For high current sources, I prefer a magnetic power conditioner, something like Torus, BPT or Equitech. These use a large transformer to isolate noise and lower the source impedance of the power, giving you your own power generator with no high resistance connections between it and your system. They also provide a power reservoir allowing huge current transients. Do some reading there.

I owned two Duets. I bought them the day they were announced for presale. They were delivered months before others started getting theirs. But both acted erratically with the remote control unit. The issue was the firmware for the remote. Logitech has finally fixed this issue andthe remote supposedly works well now. Be sure to get the latest version of SqueezeCenter. It contains the firmware for player and remote within it and will force an upgrade to those.  You do need a wireless network in your house to use Duet. Supposedly the remote can connect to the player for its wireless connection, but last time I talked to Logitech they were frowning on that use, but coulda been due to the bad firmware. If you have a strong wifi access point then you can run the player wirelessly with no dropouts. Music streaming is not a high bandwidth chore and Duet has a 1.5 minute buffer on uncompressed wav. Give the wireless a try until you hear dropouts (music skips)  then use a hard wire or upgrade your wireless router to Dlink 655

Modwright TP cannot be used as external DAC, the digital input is disabled in the modding. It also can't be connected directly to your amps because the resistor volume pads are defeated too. But with a good preamp, it plays well. As you can tell from the long threads, it also benefits greatly from tube swapping, and the tubes that win are expensive. It is not a budget or beginner's product in my opinion. Your TADAC will get you up to speed to try more advanced gear soon enough.

I would suggest that you get your new equipment running and dialed in before buying much more stuff.
I don't know if this will resonate with you, but you can find a shortcut in picking what's best for you by using your gut. You will know when it feels right. Pay attention to your gut. If you have an uneasy feeling about something no matter what everyone esle says, stay away. Also consider that what's best for you now may not be best a year from now. You need to learn about your room, and yourself before you can appreciate finer equipment. Buying it first will frustrate and reduce your enjoyment. It is a artistic journey, not an applicance purchase. The system evolves over time as you learn more and more, that's the fun of it, as much as listening to music.

Richidoo,

The mod Dan performs to the Transporter DOES NOT disable or defeat its ability to connect directly to your choice of amplification and control the volume via the Transporter.  I used my Modwright TP in this exact fashion for months before I bought a preamp.

Also, I don't believe that Dan's mod disables your ability to use the digital inputs and outputs, but I will leave a definitive response to Dan or a member who uses their Modwright TP in that capacity.

George

[owenmd]

George is correct.... the digital input works absolutely great on the Transporter.... I haven't tried the outputs as there isn't much point given the nature of the product.  The DAC/tube output stage is better than any other combo I've heard and very flexible for multiple inputs and sources.  The Transporter also "technically" works fine straight into amps.... although doesn't always sound best this way.

Mark

[ted_b]

The digital outputs work too.  Everything works like the stock player except the analog attenuation jumpers (internal jumpers) are bypassed.

[tomjtx]

Indiesound,

why don't you start with an unmodded TP ?

It sounds great, is significantly better than the Duett and , IMO, is one of the best DACs around.

You can always send it in later to mod it if you still want to do so.

You can find a TP new at a discount or buy used for a substantial savings.

Before you spend money on wire be aware that no one has been able to identify differences in wire in controlled blind testing.

Anti cables are likely the most money you will ever need to spend.

[shirtaspants]

[Bigfish]

George is correct.... the digital input works absolutely great on the Transporter.... I haven't tried the outputs as there isn't much point given the nature of the product.  The DAC/tube output stage is better than any other combo I've heard and very flexible for multiple inputs and sources.  The Transporter also "technically" works fine straight into amps.... although doesn't always sound best this way.

Mark

Mark:

You are totally correct, it does not sound its best when direct connected to amps and using the Transporter's volume controls.  I have tried it at my home and at Richidoo's during a G2G.  I think I have even read comments from Dan Wright that you will lose information unless the volume is close to a maximum level.  Anyway, my ModWright Transporter sounds best when connected to a quality preamp.

Ken   

[richidoo]

Thanks for replying to my post George, Mark and Ken. At the two G2Gs Ken mentioned, we tried using the digital coaxial input on Ken's modded TP, but it wouldn't work no matter what we tried. We used several digital transports like SB3, Sonos, several CDPs, Analysis Plus digicable... so we all assumed that the feature was defeated and it was pretty disappointing and didn't make sense. Could have been operator error, or maybe a malfunction in Ken's unit. Yes, we did set the input select.

As for direct connect to amps, the stock TP has adjustable internal resistor pads in the output stage to reduce full scale output voltage to match various amp input sensitivities. This allows safe direct connection to amps and minimal loss of resolution from digital attenuation. Stock output stage is replaced on the Moddy of course, but the feature is not carried over. So if you connect the ModWright TP directly to an amp and turn down the digital volume to soft level, the sound quality will be reduced due to truncated data. This is common with any digital volume control. A ModWright Transporter should properly be used with a ModWright preamp anyway, right?  Like chocolate and peanut butter... 

Here's one AC discussion about the attenuator pads that I remember. There may be others too.
Rich

[zybar]

Thanks for replying to my post George, Mark and Ken. At the two G2Gs Ken mentioned, we tried using the digital coaxial input on Ken's modded TP, but it wouldn't work no matter what we tried. We used several digital transports like SB3, Sonos, several CDPs, Analysis Plus digicable... so we all assumed that the feature was defeated and it was pretty disappointing and didn't make sense. Could have been operator error, or maybe a malfunction in Ken's unit. Yes, we did set the input select.

As for direct connect to amps, the stock TP has adjustable internal resistor pads in the output stage to reduce full scale output voltage to match various amp input sensitivities. This allows safe direct connection to amps and minimal loss of resolution from digital attenuation. Stock output stage is replaced on the Moddy of course, but the feature is not carried over. So if you connect the ModWright TP directly to an amp and turn down the digital volume to soft level, the sound quality will be reduced due to truncated data. This is common with any digital volume control. A ModWright Transporter should properly be used with a ModWright preamp anyway, right?  Like chocolate and peanut butter... 

Here's one AC discussion about the attenuator pads that I remember. There may be others too.
Rich

Rich,

Please keep in mind that each system will be different and the level of attenuation required will also be different.  For example, when I was using the Modwright TP direct into my amps, I listened anywhere from -5 to -25 on the volume control.  In this range, I don't believe I was losing any resolution.  Was I listening at silly levels?  Nope.  It was a combination of having relatively low efficiency on my speakers (~86db), having amp with a relatively high voltage input (almost 3 volts), and a good sized listening room.  On the flip side, I know of Modwright TP owners who had to listen at -50 or even lower and were absolutely losing some resolution. 

You and others are spot on about a preamp improving the Modwright TP's performance.  In my case it is a Plinius M8 (sorry Dan) that is doing an excellent job.

George

[Big Red Machine]

What about the Burson Buffer instead of a preamp?

[zybar]

What about the Burson Buffer instead of a preamp?

A Burson Buffer (especially a modified one), certainly helped the Bolder Cable SB2/SB3 setup.  I have not tried one with either a stock or Modwright TP.

George