Rebuilding the Audio passion, advice please.

Markus23 · « **on:** 12 Mar 2009, 10:15 pm »

Hi all, I want to update my old system now that the kids are all grown, and that I am recently retired.

I am out of tune with more current products, but glad to see company names that I am familiar with.

My system consists of:

Pioneer Elite series PD-65 Cd player (CD skips, sometime)
Thorens TD-160
Quad 34 and 303 preamp / amp
Rogers LS-9 Speakers.

I narrowed my choices to these:

Electronics

NAIM, Musical Fidelity, Simaudio, Rega, Bryston.

Speakers

Spendor, Proac, Harbeth, Monitor Audio, Dynaudio

My budget is about 10k for a CD Player, speakers and amp. I know the list is long, but I want to narrow it down before hitting the stores.

Any advice on possible combinations? thanks in advance

WGH · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Mar 2009, 12:07 am »

Looking at your selection of manufacturers and the local time in your profile are you in England?

And welcome to AC.

Wayne

BillB · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Mar 2009, 01:00 am »

This probably doesn't help but I loved, make that LOVED the Rega bookshelfs. The day I went into the store I listened to the regas, 2k+ totems and 10k+ theils and the Regas in their horribly placed, wide open room impressed me the most...almost enough to make me trade my Jordans out.

Markus23 · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Mar 2009, 12:38 pm »

I am glad to be here, thanks Wayne. I live in Eastern Canada, but I always loved the "Brittish" sound, if you can call it that.

I have heard good things from the Rega's, but haven't listen to them yet. BillB, do you remember what equipment was used to drive the Rega's?

The first piece of equipment I will purchase will probably be the Intergrated amp, the rest of the equipment soon after.
My Rogers are still in pretty good shape, and still have all my vinyl's that I want to rediscover after all these years.

Does anyone here have one of the intergrated amp in my list? and post comment on, likes and dislikes?

Mark

turkey · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 Mar 2009, 04:51 pm »

Perhaps you could look into some of the Canadian speaker companies?

Paul Barton's PSB and Paradigm are two you should check into. Mirage also still makes speakers in Canada, and they have some interesting models.

If the CD player skips, then it's definitely time for a new one.

As for your other electronics, I would get some new speakers and then evaluate whether or not you really need a new amp and preamp.

JLM · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 Mar 2009, 05:32 pm »

I had a TD-160 with after market tone arm, until it fell 5 feet on to a concrete floor.

Yes, if the CDP is skipping, it is time to clean the CDs or get a new source. Nowadays PC audio is big. All your CD's MP3's, etc. get ripped to your hard drive (remember to make a backup copy). You can use a Squeezebox/Duet for $300-400 as a DAC (digital analog converter) and controller or a simple DAC. (Check out Boulder Cable below for highly regarded modifications for the Squeezebox/Duet.) Benchmark is just one manufacturer of very good DACs. Hard drives are dirt cheap, with lossless compression you can store 2,500 CDs on a $200 1 TB drive. Or you can buy an Olive brand player that has its own hard drive/computer but looks like a CD player. Of course you can still buy a nice CD player or a cheaper player (not invest in the moving/breakable parts) and add a DAC.

Amps should be selected based on the speakers to pick and selecting speakers is a very personal decision. Out of the brands listed, I'd start with Rega, Bryston, and Harbeth.

WGH · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Mar 2009, 05:44 pm »

I would do exactly what you are thinking and upgrade the electronics first.

I have not heard any of the brands you mentioned so I will have to go "off the list" and comment on a brand I have heard.
Audio by Van Alstine makes an integrated that you might like.
http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/control_amplifier/index.htm
The Insight gear has plenty of PRAT and the latest upgrade has eliminated the last trace of sold state dryness.
There are plenty of reviews of the Insight equipment on the Van Alstine Circle.
AVA has a 30 day trial so for the cost of shipping you can hear if you like it. You should probably listen to AVA gear last because once you hear it you won't want to send it back. Or get it first so you can compare the other integrateds to it.

Wayne

groovybassist · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 Mar 2009, 06:35 pm »

Markus23:

Is your $10K figure USD or CAD? This will make a big difference in what you can get. Size of your room should play a key role as well.

I had a Naim Nait5i (the original version) and it was a great amp. The new italic-2 version is supposed to be even better. Naim has also just introduced the XS, which is an integrated between the Nait5i and Supernait. It's been getting great press and has the added benefit of being upgradeable in the future by adding an accessory power supply (Flatcap, etc.). As a music lover, I'd think Naim XS and CD5X, with a pair of Harbeth Compact 7-es3 would sound terrific - it probably fits in a USD $10K budget better than a CAD $10K budget though. This rig has a good future upgrade path in that a Flatcap2X could upgrade both the XS and CD5X simultaneously.

If you had an opportunity, it would probably be pretty informative to demo the XS/CD5X vs. the Rega Elicit/Saturn combo.

For what it's worth, I moved up the Naim line to their entry-level separates and have a CD5X/NAC122X/Flatcap2X/NAP150X rig driving Lenehan Audio ML1 speakers from Australia. Sounds great to me!

Good luck. There aren't too many Naim/Rega folks on AC - hopefully more will chime in.

-Mike

richidoo · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 Mar 2009, 07:35 pm »

Harbeth Compact 7 is very balanced and natural sounding, I think it is the best value in their line. Also consider Quad 2805 - a mesmerizing speaker, and incredible value, they work great in smaller rooms. Try a Cayin A-100 tube integrated with Gold Lion KT88s for either of these speakers.

I would get the speakers first, they bring the most distortion (flavor, personality) to the system and are the most demanding of compromise from the rest of the system. You fit the shoe to the foot, not the other way around.
Congratulations on your retirement, and happy listening!
Rich

Markus23 · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Mar 2009, 07:50 pm »

Wow thanks for all your replies. But I really want to change the Amp and pre-amp first.

Thanks Turkey, I am sure I will have the opportunity to listen to Canadian speakers, but I do love the "Brit" sound, My amp/preamp are 20 year olds, I want to refresh them with something more current.

Poor TD-160

, I was considering DAC, I used to work as a SW engineer, HD are cheaper to replace when you have a backup, and unless the DAC fall 5 feet on a concrete floor

.

Thanks WGH, I am not sure about buying a product that only seams to be only available trough the web.. Maybe I am wrong.

Groovybassist, 10K is CAD, I will look into the combo's you suggested.

I really appreciate the time you took to reply, and your suggestions are all noted.

Maybe I should of made a shorter list, or just mention that I was interested in buying and integrated amp first

Does anyone here nave and integrated amp from the list I provided?

Mark

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Mar 2009, 08:38 pm »

Regards replacing your CDP, I'll tell you what I have done to my nightly pleasure, purchase a DVD player (to be used as your transport) that will upscale your CD's, a digital cable, and a used Bel Canto DAC2 on Audiogon. Less than 1/10th of your budget and lasting song.

Rocket · « **Reply #11 on:** 14 Mar 2009, 12:43 am »

Hi Mark,

$10K is a pretty good budget for your new hifi system. Is it totally set in concrete that electronics/speakers need to be UK products? I first got into hifi in 1985 and had a rega p2, nad integrated amp, quadral speakers (germany), graduated to monitor audio 852's and then energy pro 22's.

Have you thought about checking out some of the internet direct dealers here on audiocircle. I imported a pair of salk sound ht2's to australia last year and they are very good speakers. My ht2's sound quite a bit better than my nuforce s9's that sell for $5500US. Another amplifier option is to look at van alstine or possibly wyred 4 sound products.

Just thought I'd give you some different options. Btw there may be a salk owner not too far from you in canada that you could audition a pair of speakers from.

Best wishes

Rod

jrtrent · « **Reply #12 on:** 14 Mar 2009, 03:23 pm »

Quote from: Markus23 on 13 Mar 2009, 12:38 pm

still have all my vinyl's that I want to rediscover after all these years.

Does anyone here have one of the intergrated amp in my list? and post comment on, likes and dislikes?

I've only heard the Rega integrateds at a shop, and I'm afraid my Naim experience is limited to owning the original Nait some 24 years ago. Given your comment about not wanting to buy a product only available through the web, I'm assuming you have local dealerships for at least some of the items on your list. I'd strongly encourage you to arrange a home demonstration or take your Quad electronics (and maybe your speakers) along to the dealers for some comparative listening. The in-home trial period from Van Alstine isn't a bad way to shop, however; I've ended up replacing my Linn LK1/LK2 with the AVA OmegaStar PAT-5 preamp and Insight 240 power amplifier (haven't heard their integrated).

You might also consider a change in turntables if you want to "rediscover" your vinyl. Last summer, as part of a whim to "buy American," I bought the little Well Tempered Record Player. Surprisingly, I'm getting more enjoyment out of my records than previously, and my LP12/Ittok LVIII combination (a Cirkus model I bought new in 1993, replacing an LP12 I'd bought in 1985) was no slouch. And I'm not referring to hi-fi artifacts like bass, treble, imaging, detail, etc.; the WTRP is beating the LP12 at its own game, with better rhythm and pacing, superior separation of instrumental lines, and better dynamic contrasts, making recorded music sound more like real musicians playing real instruments. I'm re-discovering and responding even to those albums in my collection that I hadn't previously enjoyed because they're simply making more sense musically than before (in fairness, my LP12 has just the Basik power supply and about 16,000 hours of playing time on it; with a new motor and the Lingo power supply, conclusions could be different). This isn't to say that the WTRP is the only or best choice, just that while you're auditioning equipment, you might consider whether your turntable might not also be improved.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #13 on:** 14 Mar 2009, 05:33 pm »

Have you had the chance to sample any of the Sugden amps? I used to have an A28B that kept me entranced for 10 years.

You might be able to score an A21A if 25wpc of Class A is enough for you?

Bryston makes excellent kit too, and is easily sourced and serviced here in Canada. They have a circle here too, so you can get lots of info right from James Tanner.

Never an easy choice, but lots of fun sorting it out! Good luck.

Markus23 · « **Reply #14 on:** 19 Mar 2009, 05:04 pm »

Hi everyone,

Sorry for not visiting sooner, I was away on a 4 day ski trip, love that spring skiing..... Also help me re-think my priority.

Bringing up using a DAC stirred up many idea's, I have about 60 Gig of Digitizes Cd's, and I also own a Zune MP3 player, if I buy and integrated amp with build in converter, I can use my PC or Zune for now, and eventually a dedicated backup server of DAC.

So, to make my list a little leaner, and to fragment my purchases so that everytime I bring in a new piece of equipment in the system, I get to discover it slowly and savor each new purchase..

, I used to love to hear the evolution of the unit before and after the break in period, and get accustomed to the finer details everytime I buy something new.

So for now I will keep the speakers I currently own.

My 3 choices are:

Bryston B100 +DAC
http://bryston.com/b100sst_m.html

SimAudio I3.3 + DAC
http://simaudio.com/mooni33.htm

And SuperNait
http://www.naim-audio.com/products/supernait.html

(I'm not sure they have the DAC incorporated, but they do sell a HD).

They all fit in my budget, and secondly there are stores that I can go and demo them.

Now, thins bring two more questions

1-What are the advantages and disadvantages of having internal or external DAC?

2-Did anyone here have the chance or is a proud owner of any one of the three intergrated amps mentioned above?

3- I know I said 2 questions, but what do you think of my 3 choice?

Many thanks again.

Mark

whubbard · « **Reply #15 on:** 19 Mar 2009, 05:31 pm »

Quote from: Markus23 on 19 Mar 2009, 05:04 pm

I also own a Zune MP3 player

Woo-Hoo, me too!!! There is, for me, only one downside to the zune: No digital out. It's a terrible source for a high-end system.
Sorry to rain on your parade

The PC however will give you a digital out natively, or you can buy a USB to S/PDIF.

-West

doug s. · « **Reply #16 on:** 19 Mar 2009, 05:41 pm »

i really think you will be missing out on a lot of musical enjoyment if you do not at least listen to tube gear, preamp and amp - especially preamp. after going tubes, i couldn't imagine having a solid state main audio system.

re: digital, i would look for a nice ~$500 dac, (try oversampling and non-oversampling - they have different presentations, and it seems some folks really prefer one over the other). then, find a nice transport. plug each into separated dedicated isolation transformers. this, imo, will give you 98% of the best sound offered by redbook cd, regardless of how much you spend. or, go for a computer-based system - use the hard drive to store your cd's, and play thru a squeezebox or similar, and the dac.

re: speakers, i think your choices are good, but there's is yust so much out there, i would also recommend exploring ribbon drivers, full-range or near-full-range drivers, and horns. and, regardless of what speaker you choose, i would recommend an active outboard x-over and a pair of subwoofers. this is another thing i couldn't imagine - not having outboard subs, and not having my mains relieved of the need to play that last octave or three...

welcome to a/c!

best,

doug s.

pardales · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Mar 2009, 06:36 pm »

Quote from: Markus23 on 19 Mar 2009, 05:04 pm

Hi everyone,

Sorry for not visiting sooner, I was away on a 4 day ski trip, love that spring skiing..... Also help me re-think my priority.

Bringing up using a DAC stirred up many idea's, I have about 60 Gig of Digitizes Cd's, and I also own a Zune MP3 player, if I buy and integrated amp with build in converter, I can use my PC or Zune for now, and eventually a dedicated backup server of DAC.

So, to make my list a little leaner, and to fragment my purchases so that everytime I bring in a new piece of equipment in the system, I get to discover it slowly and savor each new purchase.. , I used to love to hear the evolution of the unit before and after the break in period, and get accustomed to the finer details everytime I buy something new.

So for now I will keep the speakers I currently own.

My 3 choices are:

Bryston B100 +DAC
http://bryston.com/b100sst_m.html

SimAudio I3.3 + DAC
http://simaudio.com/mooni33.htm

And SuperNait
http://www.naim-audio.com/products/supernait.html

(I'm not sure they have the DAC incorporated, but they do sell a HD).

They all fit in my budget, and secondly there are stores that I can go and demo them.

Now, thins bring two more questions

1-What are the advantages and disadvantages of having internal or external DAC?

2-Did anyone here have the chance or is a proud owner of any one of the three intergrated amps mentioned above?

3- I know I said 2 questions, but what do you think of my 3 choice?

Many thanks again.

Mark

All good choices, going by reputation alone. Given what you have written thus far I think a one box solution would be great for you. The Bryston with DAC or Supernait have very strong reputations.

Markus23 · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Mar 2009, 03:55 pm »

Hi again,

Finally got the chance to demo some equipment, I went to a store that is 40 min away from were I live. The store carries Naim and Simaudio, the setup looked like this:

Naim Supernait intergrated+built in DAC amp vs. the Simaudio intergrated+Built in DAC amp I3.3

Source used: My Zune 80 and a Sony DVD player.

Speakers used, Harbeth compact 7ES-3, very similar to my Rogers LS-9.

Music: Laurie Anderson's Mister Heartbreak. Miles Davis, A tribute to Miles. Tori Amos, Under the Pink.

Both are very good, they are both accurate and melodic, but there is no question that the Simaudio came out the winner, here's why. Simaudio is much more dynamic, a little more detailed, but is still very smooth, lots of power, The Supernait seamed a little timid during big and heavy passages, especially when listening to the bass and drums on Laurie Anderson's song Gravity's Angel.

This kind of caught me off guard, being a UK equipment fan, I was not expecting this, my opinion was biased, and I expected the Naim to be better.

Also The Simaudio has a USB port and MP3 plug on the front panel, Supenait does not.

Doug S. mention listening to Ribbon or full range speakers, I remember listening to speakers called Accoustat and Magneplanars (I think, must be old age), I could not afford them, but I remember that they sounded great, and now I have the room for them.

The next store I am going to, carries Martin Logan's, I will compare the Simaudio and Bryston with them. I know they are not on my original list, but hey! what the….

This was no contest; Simaudio won hands down.

Markus

Markus23 · « **Reply #19 on:** 25 Mar 2009, 01:31 pm »

Hi, on my previous post, I forgot to mention that there was we also used a Naim CD player, the CD-5X and the Simaudio, CD 3.3

Today or tomorrow, I will compare the Bryston and Simaudio, based on what I read, Bryston has a good CD player.

By the way, does anyone here own Martin Logan's, how are they compared to 10 years ago?

Markus