point source or line array for my application

intowin · « **on:** 6 Mar 2009, 07:30 pm »

I have a 15wide by 22long by 10 high dedicated home theater room. 50/50 music movies.

Is this room too small for line arrays or would I be better off with point source.

Trying to decide between salk ht3 and av123 ls6 or selah or vmps 40

kip_ · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 Mar 2009, 10:29 pm »

I don't think your room is too small for a line array. I will say that the AV123 LS series, while it very impressive speaker, uses fairly low quality drivers compared to nearly anything Selah sells. The woofer is a relative of a Peerless woofer that's used in a $249 x-ls. It has a stronger motor structure. The woofer probably costs them less than $100 each.

I've heard them at a get-together, they have a very impressive soundstage but the bass, while extended, seemed like it could be a little bit cleaner. They don't need a subwoofer for anything over 20hz.

Also, I would never, ever, ever buy anything from AV123 that isn't in stock and ready to ship RIGHT NOW. They've had endless problems with quality assurance, refunds, and preorders lately. They are, or used to be at least, a very good value though.

(rick, feel free to edit my post if any of this is inappropriate)

-Will

Brucemck · « **Reply #2 on:** 7 Mar 2009, 12:48 am »

My room is 18' long by 14' wide by 12' high. Rick's line arrays are NOT too large for the room.

S Clark · « **Reply #3 on:** 7 Mar 2009, 12:50 am »

Quote from: kip_ on 6 Mar 2009, 10:29 pm

...the AV123 LS series, while it very impressive speaker, uses fairly low quality drivers compared to nearly anything Selah sells. They are the same Peerless India woofer is used in the $249 X-LS series.

-Will

WHOA...I won't go into detail in Rick's forum, but to imply that the custom drivers in the GR-Research line are low quality is incorrect. You also have an error about which tweeters are used in the LS series. Yes, Selah uses more expensive drivers. Talk to the the designers for both companies before you buy. I have heard products from both. They are both talented. And yes, a line source should do well in the space described.

cadobhuk · « **Reply #4 on:** 7 Mar 2009, 04:49 am »

Not just more expensive, better drivers. You can't say that they're just overpriced and don't perform any better. The line arrays using them cost more as well, though.

S Clark · « **Reply #5 on:** 7 Mar 2009, 05:09 am »

Sir,
You have inappropriately indicated that I thought that a particular driver is overpriced. They each do various things well. I can assure you that the expense of a particular driver is far less important than the skill of the designer. Again, there are many excellent designers, including Rick. I simply state that to indicate that the GR-Research drivers are inferior quality is incorrect. Excellent designers have used them to their satisfaction, such as Dennis Murphy's http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=MBOW1.html. Again, I hold the designs of Rick in highest esteem, but simply hold that there are many designers finding their way to excellence by different routes. I'd rather not continue this discussion in this forum, but would be happy to continue by PM.

S Clark

Tyson · « **Reply #6 on:** 7 Mar 2009, 05:33 am »

Getting back to the original question - IMO, Line Array's are one of the best options available. I own VMPS RM40's, which I love. The only other speaker I've heard that I'd want to own is from Selah audio.

kip_ · « **Reply #7 on:** 7 Mar 2009, 01:16 pm »

I was wrong about the driversin the LS Series. They are similar, but with a nicer motor structure, and the tweeters are both by BG but different. My point about cheaper drivers vs. SEAS and ScanSpeak stands.

Rick Craig · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Mar 2009, 02:52 pm »

Quote from: intowin on 6 Mar 2009, 07:30 pm

I have a 15wide by 22long by 10 high dedicated home theater room. 50/50 music movies.

Is this room too small for line arrays or would I be better off with point source.

Trying to decide between salk ht3 and av123 ls6 or selah or vmps 40

Which model of our speakers? These are all quite different.

intowin · « **Reply #9 on:** 8 Mar 2009, 06:40 pm »

Thanks for the help guys. I think I like the idea of being able to fill the room with line arrays and will probably go that route. Do you know of any problems timbre matching the center and surrounds? I notice most of the line array companies seem to just sell left and right. Can I lay an array on the side for the center?

tia

PDR · « **Reply #10 on:** 8 Mar 2009, 07:01 pm »

I have one of ricks arrays for my HT fronts and another for the HT rears.....
When I inquired about a center to match he suggested the Sardonyx,
it was a excellent pairing.You can really notice how nice they match on
SACD, DVD audio,etc.

Perry

cadobhuk · « **Reply #11 on:** 8 Mar 2009, 09:42 pm »

I think if you care about clarity and transparency as well as dynamics, selah alexandrite or accuarray will provide you with the best sound out of the options you listed - but they're also the most expensive. If too expensive, I'd go with ht3 or the selah alternative like peridot or rc4.

kip_ · « **Reply #12 on:** 8 Mar 2009, 10:52 pm »

You might also look at something custom like the Fountek ribbons with some cheaper woofers like the Seas CA15RLY or something in that range, if you really want an array. I'm sure Rick can come up with something cheaper than the XT8/Accuarray.

Cacophonix · « **Reply #13 on:** 9 Mar 2009, 12:03 am »

Or try the symmetrica type array with neo planars and 3" peerless drivers .. Are you looking for a kit or fully built speakers?

Rick Craig · « **Reply #14 on:** 9 Mar 2009, 01:45 am »

Quote from: intowin on 8 Mar 2009, 06:40 pm

Thanks for the help guys. I think I like the idea of being able to fill the room with line arrays and will probably go that route. Do you know of any problems timbre matching the center and surrounds? I notice most of the line array companies seem to just sell left and right. Can I lay an array on the side for the center?

tia

The arrays don't perform well when placed horizontally. A conventional WMTW center channel is what I reccommend.

cujobob · « **Reply #15 on:** 9 Mar 2009, 05:41 am »

Line sources are not that much harder than point sources for working into a room. They need more sidewall attention but less floor/ceiling (which most people ignore anyways, though they shouldn't if in a serious 2-channel room).

The differences between expensive drivers and the inexpensive drivers available are not that incredible, not only that, but having a driver built to your exact specifications is what really matters...price doesn't always translate into better results.

As for the speakers/brands you mentioned, this is my opinion on them:

The Salk HT3s are supposed to be wonderful speakers, but are somewhat limited by needing big amps.
The AV123 LS-6 is supposed to be a great design, but the company has some questions surrounding it at this time (last I heard, they do have a few finishes in stock and ready to ship)...the drivers used are in fact high quality and there is a bass management system to better integrate the low end into the room.
I don't know too much about the VMPS design.
Selah has some very nice stuff and the prices are also quite reasonable, the Line Source designs won't go as low as the LS-6, but will integrate very well with subwoofers.

If you plan on running big powerful amps, then any of these will do well.

The associated gear might

cadobhuk · « **Reply #16 on:** 9 Mar 2009, 07:00 am »

High quality I guess is a relative term, but I think seas and accuton woofers are on a quite different level from peerless ones. In a line array it's possible that the difference might be diminished but in conventional speakers it would be obvious, imo. I think many people would rank fountek ribbon over BG planars as well.

kip_ · « **Reply #17 on:** 9 Mar 2009, 12:13 pm »

Quote from: cadobhuk on 9 Mar 2009, 07:00 am

High quality I guess is a relative term, but I think seas and accuton woofers are on a quite different level from peerless ones. In a line array it's possible that the difference might be diminished but in conventional speakers it would be obvious, imo. I think many people would rank fountek ribbon over BG planars as well.

Somewhat OT, but read this: http://www.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/ The BG tweeter doesn't look that shabby for half the price! I think I've seen a line array from Rick that uses it posted somewhere...

cadobhuk · « **Reply #18 on:** 9 Mar 2009, 12:36 pm »

I've read that before, he actually ranked a cheapo vifa dome over all of them, and quite a few people prefer ribbons over even top quality domes (aircirc and alike). I'm not exactly sure but I think he mostly tested for THD and linearity, while transient response speed and detail weren't taken into account.

Brucemck · « **Reply #19 on:** 9 Mar 2009, 01:13 pm »

Rick's arrays are spectacular.

The LS6s are very nice too. They require quite a bit of amplification to really get going.