[nyc_paramedic]

I'm trying to do as much research on line and get all my pertinent questions written down before I call Salk Sound.
I need some help determining what these figures mean:

HT2: 45Hz - 25KHz (+ .5/- 2db)
       38Hz - 60KHz (+/-3db)

v3: 35Hz - 25KHz (+/- 1 1/2db)
     32Hz - 60KHz (+/-3db)

My current B&W Matrix (circa 1996) 804: (-6dB points) 31Hz to 22Khz
                                    Bass Loading: Overdamped fourth order -6dB at 31 Hz


I enjoy the bass output that my current little towers put out, but I always wanted just a little bit more. I'm trying to understand how a HT2 would compare relatively (given room placement, etc) to the B&W's, and if I would be giving up much.

[DMurphy]

I'm trying to do as much research on line and get all my pertinent questions written down before I call Salk Sound.
I need some help determining what these figures mean:

HT2: 45Hz - 25KHz (+ .5/- 2db)
       38Hz - 60KHz (+/-3db)

v3: 35Hz - 25KHz (+/- 1 1/2db)
     32Hz - 60KHz (+/-3db)

My current B&W Matrix (circa 1996) 804: (-6dB points) 31Hz to 22Khz
                                    Bass Loading: Overdamped fourth order -6dB at 31 Hz


I enjoy the bass output that my current little towers put out, but I always wanted just a little bit more. I'm trying to understand how a HT2 would compare relatively (given room placement, etc) to the B&W's, and if I would be giving up much.

Hi  comparing manufacturer frequency response specs is almost impossible, since there isn't any standardized method, and certainly none that takes harmonic distortion into account.  All I can say is that if you're considering an HT2, it would be the new transmission line version, which goes deeper than the old model.    I'm pretty sure it has useful, clean response down to at least 32 Hz, and would probably match or beat the B&W in the bass department. I checked the on-line reviews of the 804, and while they seemed very positive, there were several comments about the bass being a little light. 

[nyc_paramedic]

[quote author=DMurphy link=topic=65408.msg599397#msg599397 date=1235854622
Hi  comparing manufacturer frequency response specs is almost impossible, since there isn't any standardized method, and certainly none that takes harmonic distortion into account.  All I can say is that if you're considering an HT2, it would be the new transmission line version, which goes deeper than the old model.    I'm pretty sure it has useful, clean response down to at least 32 Hz, and would probably match or beat the B&W in the bass department. I checked the on-line reviews of the 804, and while they seemed very positive, there were several comments about the bass being a little light. 
[/quote]

So the HT2 page needs to be updated?

The B&W's can be considered light in comparison to other full range designs, but they work very well in this 16 by 12 room. I did get a chance to listen to a pair of HT3's (thanks again Joe) this week. I was impressed with the mid-range, but I doubt my Pass Aleph 5 (60watts) will be able to drive them. Then again, I do value midrange clarity, sound staging, and a speaker's ability to disappear over bass extension.

Thanks for the reply.

[DMurphy]

Yup--The HT2 page needs to be updated.  60 watts does seem pretty low for the HT3's, but the HT2 is probably about 3 dB more sensitive, so that shouldn't be a problem. 

[funkmonkey]

All I can say is that if you're considering an HT2, it would be the new transmission line version, which goes deeper than the old model.    I'm pretty sure it has useful, clean response down to at least 32 Hz...

  Really?  The HT2-TL is pretty darn close to the HT3 with numbers like that.  How low did you say the HT3 reached with the new woofer?  Or has that not been measured yet?

[jsalk]

nyc_paramedic -

I'm trying to do as much research on line and get all my pertinent questions written down before I call Salk Sound.
I need some help determining what these figures mean:

HT2: 45Hz - 25KHz (+ .5/- 2db)
       38Hz - 60KHz (+/-3db)

v3: 35Hz - 25KHz (+/- 1 1/2db)
     32Hz - 60KHz (+/-3db)

My current B&W Matrix (circa 1996) 804: (-6dB points) 31Hz to 22Khz
                                    Bass Loading: Overdamped fourth order -6dB at 31 Hz


I enjoy the bass output that my current little towers put out, but I always wanted just a little bit more. I'm trying to understand how a HT2 would compare relatively (given room placement, etc) to the B&W's, and if I would be giving up much.

If I understand your question, you would like to know what all these numbers mean.

Historically, speaker response specifications have been expressed at xx Hz to xx Hz +/- 3db.  This was deemed to be the "usable" frequency response.  In the bass area, there is still output below this point, but it is not loud enough to be useful.

In the case of the B&W's, a fourth order slope is 24db per octave.  They are down -6db at 31Hz.  So their -3db point (F3) is quite a bit higher. 

Often manufacturers, especially subwoofer manufacturers, quote bass extension in terms of F6 (-6db) or even F10 (-10db) to make the bass response seem deeper.  Their justification is that room response extends the usable bass.  But it is merely a marketing ploy that makes it appear their speakers or subs perform better than they actually do.

In the above number quoted from our site, we provide the frequency response expressed in standard +/- 3db figures, but also in figures that provide an insight into how flat the actual response is.  We feel this provides a more detailed  picture of the accuracy of a speaker.

So the HT2 page needs to be updated?

Well, Dennis jumped the gun a little here in that we have not yet announced this version of the HT2.  We haven't even established a price for it.  But we did ship the first pair this past week and have another 6 - 8 pairs we will be finishing up in the next two weeks or so.  So we are building them.  We have simply allowed those recently purchasing HT2's the choice of cabinets at the present HT2 pricing and most have opted for this new TL design.  When we do get around to announcing this model, the price will be higher than the present HT2 model by, perhaps, around $500 or so.

  Really?  The HT2-TL is pretty darn close to the HT3 with numbers like that.  How low did you say the HT3 reached with the new woofer?  Or has that not been measured yet?

Yes, it is "pretty darn close."  The HT2's in the new TL cabinet will probably have an F3 of about 32Hz.  The HT3's have an F3 of 29Hz.  The new HT3 woofer is capable of being tuned lower than that (at the expense of some power handling).  But in order to tune it lower, you have to extend the length of the port.  The problem is, you simply start running out of room for the port to breathe properly internally.  So you then have to introduce bends in the ports internally.  And, of course, this additional port volume means you lose cabinet volume that you must replace.  So you have to re-design the cabinet. 

When we looked at all of this, we thought we had better just leave well enough alone.  The HT3 bass extension is plenty good right where it is.  Unless you want to completely re-design the speaker, anything lower is probably better suited to a dedicated subwoofer or the new flagship model we are slowly working on. 

- Jim

[Rocket]

Hi Jim,

The new TL design HT2 must have pretty good bass because my older style speakers produce a really good quality bass response.

I'm still enjoying the speakers that you sent me last year to Australia.  I just need to fix my amplification.  Btw I use 3 amps 120 watts, 150 watts and 88 watts.  They 88 watts amplifier drives the speakers to ear piercing levels if I wish to do so.

Regards

Rod

[DMurphy]

[/quote]

Well, Dennis jumped the gun a little here in that we have not yet announced this version of the HT2.  We haven't even established a price for it.  But we did ship the first pair this past week and have another 6 - 8 pairs we will be finishing up in the next two weeks or so.  So we are building them.  We have simply allowed those recently purchasing HT2's the choice of cabinets at the present HT2 pricing and most have opted for this new TL design.  When we do get around to announcing this model, the price will be higher than the present HT2 model by, perhaps, around $500 or so.
[/quote]

Ooops.   Sorry about that.   But to be fair, I believe word has been out for some time--I know there's been discussion on this forum.  But I was wondering how you were going to be offering it for the same price, since the cabinet is more expensive to produce.  Glad you cleared that up.  BTW--I haven't heard the TL version.  But I did get advance word from somone who had (other than Jim) that the bass was very impressive. 

[Nuance]

Sounds like the HT2 TL will be what I upgrade to when I can.  Sweet!

[oneinthepipe]

My HT2 TL cabinets have been veneered and sanded, and they have their first appointment with the spray booth next week.    

[BoB/335]

Sounds like the HT2 TL will be what I upgrade to when I can.  Sweet!

So sell me your ST's at a good price and upgrade already! 

[nyc_paramedic]

Jim,

Thanks for the detailed reply. It was exactly the kind of info I was looking for.  Besides offering the TL style cabinet, do you have plans to offer any other extra goodies for an HT2 TL, like a birch plywood or bamboo cabinets?

[jsalk]

nyc_paramedic

Jim,

Thanks for the detailed reply. It was exactly the kind of info I was looking for.  Besides offering the TL style cabinet, do you have plans to offer any other extra goodies for an HT2 TL, like a birch plywood or bamboo cabinets?

The thing to keep in mind here is that this new TL cabinet has 1" thick walls rather than the standard 3/4".  So
I seriously doubt it would make any difference at all going with baltic birch plywood.  Of course, if someone wants to pay for it, we'll certainly do it.

On the topic of bamboo, we just finished building a pair of SongTowers in bamboo and they are in the spray booth this week.  It is a very nice material to work with.  Again, I don't know if it is available in 1", so you may have to use 3/4" or laminate two sheets of 1/2".  And we would be very happy to do that upon request.  HOWEVER...it is very expensive.  It cost me ten times as much for a 4 x 8 sheet 3/4" bamboo as opposed to MDF.  To be fair, there are some offsets.  No veneering is required, less sanding is required and it should be easier and less costly to finish.  So the cost of doing a pair in bamboo will be higher, but not as much as one might guess.

- Jim

[Nuance]

nyc_paramedic

Jim,

Thanks for the detailed reply. It was exactly the kind of info I was looking for.  Besides offering the TL style cabinet, do you have plans to offer any other extra goodies for an HT2 TL, like a birch plywood or bamboo cabinets?

The thing to keep in mind here is that this new TL cabinet has 1" thick walls rather than the standard 3/4".  So
I seriously doubt it would make any difference at all going with baltic birch plywood.  Of course, if someone wants to pay for it, we'll certainly do it.

On the topic of bamboo, we just finished building a pair of SongTowers in bamboo and they are in the spray booth this week.  It is a very nice material to work with.  Again, I don't know if it is available in 1", so you may have to use 3/4" or laminate two sheets of 1/2".  And we would be very happy to do that upon request.  HOWEVER...it is very expensive.  It cost me ten times as much for a 4 x 8 sheet 3/4" bamboo as opposed to MDF.  To be fair, there are some offsets.  No veneering is required, less sanding is required and it should be easier and less costly to finish.  So the cost of doing a pair in bamboo will be higher, but not as much as one might guess.

- Jim

Do you suspect there will be any sound quality differences?

[jsalk]

Do you suspect there will be any sound quality differences?

What I suspect really doesn't matter.  So I don't like to comment on that.  The only thing matters is the sound quality and if there is a difference, we'll know soon enough.  I'll let you know when the drivers are installed and we can have a listen.

There are other benefits even if there is no sound quality difference.  First, bamboo is a lot nicer to work with than MDF or baltic birch.  It machines and sands very nice.  Secondly, it is a totally renewable resource since it is a grass.  Third, it is VERY strong and solid. And finally, it looks quite attractive.

- Jim

[BradJudy]

I look forward to seeing pics of the bamboo ST when it's done.  Are you going natural or tinted?  Perhaps tinted with some masked faux-stringers? 

[jsalk]

I look forward to seeing pics of the bamboo ST when it's done.  Are you going natural or tinted?  Perhaps tinted with some masked faux-stringers? 

Our plan is to do these natural, but tape off and shoot another piece at the same time with some sample dyes.

- Jim

[bigbwb]

Do you suspect there will be any sound quality differences?

What I suspect really doesn't matter.  So I don't like to comment on that.  The only thing matters is the sound quality and if there is a difference, we'll know soon enough.  I'll let you know when the drivers are installed and we can have a listen.

There are other benefits even if there is no sound quality difference.  First, bamboo is a lot nicer to work with than MDF or baltic birch.  It machines and sands very nice.  Secondly, it is a totally renewable resource since it is a grass.  Third, it is VERY strong and solid. And finally, it looks quite attractive.

- Jim

I am very intersetd myself to read your findings on these bamboo ST's Jim.  Per our conversation a while back, if they offer an improvement sonically, mark me down for a pair in Satin black:)  How does the cabinet feel compared to the standard MDF, any more solid(knuckle tap test)?

Thanks,
Brandon

[Nuance]

Do you suspect there will be any sound quality differences?

What I suspect really doesn't matter.  So I don't like to comment on that.  The only thing matters is the sound quality and if there is a difference, we'll know soon enough.  I'll let you know when the drivers are installed and we can have a listen.

There are other benefits even if there is no sound quality difference.  First, bamboo is a lot nicer to work with than MDF or baltic birch.  It machines and sands very nice.  Secondly, it is a totally renewable resource since it is a grass.  Third, it is VERY strong and solid. And finally, it looks quite attractive.

- Jim

Cool - that's what I was looking for.  Glad to hear you'll be testing the bamboo pair soon. 

[nyc_paramedic]

Jim or Dennis,

I forgot to ask about phase and time coherence in your speaker designs. Some manufactures place a great deal of importance on these attributes; what are your thoughts on this subject. Are the HT2's (or any other Salk speaker) time and phase coherent?