[Bigfish]

Bob:

I got started on my 2 channel journey 2 years ago from a post here AC not too dissimilar from your post here.  My system consisted of a Denon CD/DVD Player,  a Denon 3806 AVR Receiver and Monitor Audio 9i speakers for mains and an Monitor Audio Center Channel Speaker.  I was quite happy with the sound from the system when playing DVDs or listening to digital tv but sound when playing CDs was pretty bad (even my wife commented how bad it sounded).  After I posted here I received several replies and one was from BPape making a comment similar to the one he made to you where he questioned the ability of the receiver to control the speakers. 

The first addition I made to my system was to add mono bloc amps to drive the main speakers, using the Denon 3806 as a preamp.  The difference in sound quality was like night and day.  My wallet was lighter but I was really happy with the sound quality.  Today, I use the Denon to drive the center channel and rear surrounds only for HT.  My preamp has HT bypass allowing the Denon to be shut-off when listening to 2 Channel. 

I most highly suspect your major problem is the Denon Receiver.  If you have to keep the Denon Receiver as your only power source you may need to find speakers that are possibly a better match for its capabilites.  I heard the Salk Song Towers at RMAF and they are both excellent sounding and excellent looking speakers.

I think you will find the guys here on AC are real music lovers and will happily give you solid advice to help you acquire a great sounding system. 

Best of Luck,

Ken

[DMurphy]

I dunno.  I can't think of any reason why a Denon receiver would make an otherwise competent speaker sound thin and bright.   My best guess is that the speaker sounds thin and bright because the speaker sounds thin and bright.  I've played my own designs on a bajillion amps and receivers, and the only times I thought there was something truly off, it turned out to be my fault.  I messed up the crossover.  We're all just expressing opinions here with no proof, but the differences among speakers are huge. The differences among amplifiers are small (if there's enough power and stability for speakers being driven).  So bottom line--try and listen to the Song Towers and then see what you think. 

[oneinthepipe]

I started this post before Dennis posted his post.  Dennis thinks faster than me and obviously writes more succinctly.  I think that you should build your system around the speakers.  Pick the speakers that you like the best that will reasonably work with your budget, room, etc.  Then, if you find that your amplification is lacking, upgrade your amplification when possible.  IMO, medicore amplification through great speakers tends to produce more enjoyment than great amplification through mediocre speakers.  If you buy speakers to fit your amplifier, and your amplifier is lacking, then your might find yourself with speakers that you don't like very much and an amplifier that you don't like very much, with the prospect of buying yet another pair of speakers and an amplifier, a potentially wateful proposition.  A suitably powerful amplifier can be a lot less expensive than speakers, although like any audio component, the sky is the limit.  However, watts "in and of themselves", tend to be cheap.  

I only have a two-channel system, which makes my situation simpler.  I bought an AVA Insight 440 amplifier.  With 220 watts per channel, the Insight 440 can drive a range of speakers.  If I had only looked for speakers that I could drive with my other amplifiers rather than the Insight 440, Salk speakers would not have been a very good option unless I purchased an amplifier with more power.  My other amps are 25 (solid state) watts and 35 (tube) watts.  I played my ST RT with the tube amp, but the tube amp didn't produce a very good low end.  My amplifier/speaker purchase was different than what I consider to be the better approach.  I purchased the Insight 440 before my ST RT because, after I hooked up my new Insight gear, I realized that my Spendors were a weak link, to say the least, and the Insight gear could provide a much better signal than the Spendors could reproduce.  (I was straining the Spendors, to put it politely.)  Ideally, IMO, pick your speakers, then upgrade your amplification if necessary.  When I think of audio budgets, I think that 50% for speakers is a reasonable starting point for a two-channel system.  The SongTower with OWII are $1800.00 in standard veneer, and they would be even less than 50% of the cost (a bargain) of a decent two-channel system with either a preamp and amp or an integrated amp, a DAC, and a CDP or CD transport. 

While I think that every component plays an important part in the system, and the preamp is the heart of the system, other components being fairly balanced, a great speaker will merely reproduce the signal that is sent to it, and poor speakers just sound poor, and there is nothing can make poor speakers sound good. 

"When you buy quality, you cry only once." 

[BoB/335]

I thought I was buying quality and crying only once.

I've spent just over $3600 for a receiver and Mains, Center, surrounds, and a sub. That's a lot of money for me. My Denon2309 was highly spoken of by many different forums. It was about all I could go for. I was originally expecting to pay about $1000 for the entire speaker arrangement. I'm three times over budget! I certainly didn't think I cut any corners. I went for mains that were more than I was going to spend for everything.

I also found out that the 2309 doesn't have any pre-outs and I found out within the time frame of the return policy where I bought the receiver. I couldn't squeak out any more for a receiver. And that was when I decided to get a sub with the mains. The other speakers came after that.

If I were to start all over again I would probably look for a good 2 channel receiver with pre-outs for Mains and a Sub and just get good mains and add a sub later if I felt I needed it for movies. Wish my Mitsubishi  and ADS speakers were still working!

Sorry about the crack about the welcome. Seems it was only one person that thought I should go to another forum area and I wigged out. I specifically wanted to be hear where the discussion would include the Song Towers. I expected that ST owners would be suggesting ST's and I wanted to know why they would over these M80's. I have heard some things that have been very helpful and I am thankful.

Looking forward to hearing these ST's of Evans!

[funkmonkey]

   Don't sweat it Bob.  Just stay away from the forums 

I started my search for a pair of $1,000 mains, quickly upped it to $2,000 (because my ears told me that I couldn't find anything under that amount that came even close to what I wanted), ended up ordering a pair of HT3s !!!!    Add some Modwright gear and a Halo amp and I am many thousand lighter in the wallet than I planned on, but...  and that is one very big BUT...

I am very happy with what I hear when I listen to music, and when I watch a movie. 

If your electronics purchases are recent, and from a decent dealer (and you are unhappy), you might be able to trade them in or possibly return them...  but it should be fine, unless your terminally afflicted with the hi-fi bug 

Good luck at Evan's.

Dear Axium...   Dear Jim... 
Cheers,
Funk

[oneinthepipe]

I've spent just over $3600 for a receiver and Mains, Center, surrounds, and a sub. That's a lot of money for me.

That is a lot of money for most of us, including me.  If I were to "do it all over again," I would make different choices, but I wouldn't know enough to "do it all over again" if I hadn't done it in the first place.  Even though my father was in the audio business, and I was exposed to audio most of my life, except when I took a 11 year hiatus, from 1997 (at age 41) to 2008, when my eldest child began walking, until last year, when my youngest child turned five years old, I am a novice compared to most of the other forum members. 

As it is, I am re-doing some of my room treatments, since I have learned more in the past few months, with the advice of the acoustic circle's members, about managing my room's acoustics.  Fortunately, most audio gear can be sold (darn, there isn't much of a market for used acoustic panels in purple fabric), albeit usually for less than one originally paid, but that also makes a good case for buying gently used gear from trusted sellers. 

Regarding the SongTowers, the speakers have vigorously loyal owners, not because SongTower owners are defensive and have any need to justify their speaker choice, but because they are such great speakers.  I have never heard a SongTower owner complain about their SongTowers or purchase thereof.  That statement doesn't apply to most other speakers, IMO.  Therefore, I think that you should sell your existing speakers and buy speakers that will make you happy, even in a two-channel system.  You will be happier, IMO, listening to two-channels of beautiful music than 5.1 channels of disappointment.  There is magic in beautifully reproduced music, and if the music doesn't sound beautiful, the magic isn't there.  Music soothes the savage beast, even in me.  If the Denon can't produce, sell it and move on to something better. 

Buy the best stuff you can get.  Salk speakers are the last speakers that you will ever need to buy, per Jim's web site.  True, there are a very few super high-end listeners that sell their HT3s to purchase super expensive Vandy's or other speakers, but that is a miniscule percentage of owners.  Additionally, their HT3s sell like hot cakes. A few months ago, there was a trio of HT2s that sold for significantly more than their asking price, TTBOMK.  Look on a'gon and compare the number of Salk speakers for sale compared to the number of [fill in the name of another limited-production manufacturer] speakers for sale and draw your own inferences. 

Building an audio system is a process, not an event.

Good luck.

[cujobob]

Denon makes solid products...while they aren't the last word in detail or dynamics, they are good buys for a HT/music system.  Axioms do tend to be bright from all I've read...while it is very possible you have a bright room or the speakers need to be broken in more (most speakers tend to be brighter out of the box from my experience), I don't believe the sonic signature is going to change so drastically that you'll be happy with your purchase.  For the pricerange you're looking at, the SongTowers are supposed to be an excellent buy...if I were looking for speakers in that price-range, its what I'd get.

For better sound, room treatments can make a huge improvement...bright rooms tend to have no carpet and a lot of bare walls and are light on furniture in many cases.  Treating first reflection points will probably yield nice improvements for you, but again, I don't think you'll see a night and day difference if you're already disappointed with your speakers.

Also, it was mentioned that you may want to post on another forum so that you'd get less biased answers, which I would say is helpful advice.  To me, it sounds like you want to be talked into switching to Song Towers...to that, I say do it.  They look great and sound great.  Still, treat your room..its the cheapest way to get better sound.

Lastly, I wouldn't ever consider any pair of speakers the last you'll ever buy.  Good speakers make you want better speakers.  Its an addictive hobby.

[jd3]

Bob,
Jim's addressed the amplification issue and ST's more than once.  Bottom line is it's more on the speaker than the amp in producing great sound (as Dennis mentioned).  I've powered my ST's with Outlaw's 7075 and 7125 and with receivers.  I'm currently using a cheap Onkyo receiver until I can afford switching to a 2 channel system with my ST's and doing something else with my HT.  While I certainly notice the difference from going from separate amps to a receiver, the ST's still sound great.  In fact, if I remember correctly, I had the ST's hooked up to a Panasonic XR-55 for a while just to see how they sounded with that receiver (I know this is probably blasphemous to some here!).  I guess what I'm trying to say is should you decide to purchase a pair of ST's and return your Axiom's, your Denon will definitely work for you until you can afford to upgrade your amp.  It's really all about the speakers.

John

[BoB/335]

  Also remember though that you're driving these with a receiver.  Very few recievers will really grab hold of speakers and show what they'll do the same way a good power amplifier will.  Even so, I think the ST's would be a big step up for you.  

Bryan

"I most highly suspect your major problem is the Denon Receiver."



I really do appreciate all of the help here. I'd like to clear up a few things.

I have no doubt that Denon makes a quality product. I have no doubt that 100 watts per channel is fine when I hear from the designer and the builder. It's statements like above from earlier in this thread that caused the discussion to touch on this issue. Not I.

I am not hear to be "convinced" that I should buy a pair of ST's. I already learned that being on a dedicated forum can more than sway you towards a purchase. Every dedicated forum is excited about their choice.

"If you don't like bright, don't get Rocket's or Studio 100's.  The tweeter on the new 100's is definitely a little bright IMO, and the Rocket 850s have always been a touch bright to my ears.  I prefer a little top end zing, but not too much.  Tyson made some good recommendations all well."

I thought Rockets were considered on the warm side and always spoken of as being warmer than the M80's. And now the ST's are warmer than the Rockets. I was considering going for the great Rocket pkg. that is presently going on.

"Salk speakers aren't bright. All the above mentioned speakers are fine but would be put in the "warm" category, they do not have the resolving characteristics and neutrality of the Salks. Some people prefer a "warm" presentation."

ST's are warmer then both M80's and Rockets, yet are not considered warm speakers.


 
"Also, it was mentioned that you may want to post on another forum so that you'd get less biased answers"


Uh, I never said that or implied that. It's funny how some things are read on forums and misinterpreted.


Looking forward to hear Evans ST's side by side with these M80's. If anything it will make for a great post for future readers at this site.

[martyo]

Nice wrap-up BoB.   

[Nuance]

  Also remember though that you're driving these with a receiver.  Very few recievers will really grab hold of speakers and show what they'll do the same way a good power amplifier will.  Even so, I think the ST's would be a big step up for you.  

Bryan

"I most highly suspect your major problem is the Denon Receiver."



I really do appreciate all of the help here. I'd like to clear up a few things.

I have no doubt that Denon makes a quality product. I have no doubt that 100 watts per channel is fine when I hear from the designer and the builder. It's statements like above from earlier in this thread that caused the discussion to touch on this issue. Not I.

I am not hear to be "convinced" that I should buy a pair of ST's. I already learned that being on a dedicated forum can more than sway you towards a purchase. Every dedicated forum is excited about their choice.

"If you don't like bright, don't get Rocket's or Studio 100's.  The tweeter on the new 100's is definitely a little bright IMO, and the Rocket 850s have always been a touch bright to my ears.  I prefer a little top end zing, but not too much.  Tyson made some good recommendations all well."

I thought Rockets were considered on the warm side and always spoken of as being warmer than the M80's. And now the ST's are warmer than the Rockets. I was considering going for the great Rocket pkg. that is presently going on.

"Salk speakers aren't bright. All the above mentioned speakers are fine but would be put in the "warm" category, they do not have the resolving characteristics and neutrality of the Salks. Some people prefer a "warm" presentation."

ST's are warmer then both M80's and Rockets, yet are not considered warm speakers.


 
"Also, it was mentioned that you may want to post on another forum so that you'd get less biased answers"


Uh, I never said that or implied that. It's funny how some things are read on forums and misinterpreted.


Looking forward to hear Evans ST's side by side with these M80's. If anything it will make for a great post for future readers at this site.

You are planning to take the receiver to the ST audition, no?  If so, you'll find out for sure whether it's capable to drive the ST's. 

The biggest difference between purchasing the Axioms and your interest in the ST's is that you are going to audition the ST's before buying anything.  I always recommend auditioning before buying, so you're already one step ahead as far as I'm concerned.   

As for the Rocket's vs. Axioms vs. SongTower's, this is just my opinion, but here goes:

The "warm" label concerning the Rocket's was about the older and discontinued RS750's and 750 Sig's.  They did, in fact, have a rolled off treble response, thus giving a laid back sound.  Personally I didn't like, and I really tried to live with it (owned 750' Sig's, 550's and 850 Sig's in the past).  Rather than people calling them "too laid back," they gave the sound the improper label of "warm," rather than the more honest description of "rolled off" or "too laid back."  Now, when the 850's were designed AV123 was trying to avoid that "laid back label," so they gave their new line more "zing" in the high frequencies.  Unfortunately, it was too much for my ears. 

The Axiom's, from the very first listen I had with the original M80's, were too forward in the lower and upper treble response.  This thinned out the midrange (just like in the Rocket's) and didn't sound natural to me.  15 minutes into the Axiom audition I pretended to get a phone call, thanked the owner and left.  That was all I needed to hear to know they weren't for me.

I've compared the 850 Sig's and ST's side-by-side in my home, and the SongTower's have cleaner, tighter bass, a fuller, more natural and more detailed midrange and a more neutral, natural and detailed high frequency presentation.  One might think the Rocket's would have more "detail" in the highs because they are more forward, but this isn't so to my ears.  Rather everything just has more of a hiss, and it's fairly distracting.  There is just too much sibilance and the timbre accuracy suffers.  As mentioned above, it overpower the upper mids as well.  Now before I owned the ST's, I compared the Rocket's to a pair of Studio 100 V4's.  I was surprised to find a very similar sonic signature, as if the Rocket's were just an ID version of the Studio's.  If I was choosing between them based on sound, it would be hard to pay twice the price for the Paradigms.  However, there have been some major complaints and shady reports of AV123 as of recent, which is a total deal breaker if you ask me.  You might want to do some research (especially in the forums) before you think about giving them your money. 

I am just one man, with one man's opinion, but I hope that helps clarify the difference between the three speakers.  The SongTower's cost $500 more than the Rocket's, and they really are worth the cost difference to my ears.  Also, remember that the Rocket's used to cost $2000/pair, and it wasn't until after the ST's started getting some attention that the price was lowered.  YMMV, of course. 

I wish you the best at your audition.  Again, if you don't like them, no big deal.  No speaker is perfect, as speaker design is all about trade-offs.  One just needs to find a speaker of who's flaws they can live with.  Enjoy!

[bpape]

I wasn't trying to 'bash' the Denon in any way.  I really doubt that it's the problem with regard to brightness.  My comment was more about mass market receivers in general.  There simply isn't budget to do the kind of power supply and circuitry you'll find in a separate amp - especially trying to hit a price point and having a piece geared more toward the HT crowd.  That doesn't make it bad by any stretch.  Everything is relative.

Also, just for clarity, I am not a Salk ST owner.  I've heard them a few times and my comments were based purely on that.  I've also heard the Axioms and the Paradigms and was simply stating my experience and preference.

Regardless, you'll be able to hear for yourself when you get a chance to hear both with the Denon at the audition.  That's really the best way.  In the end, it's only your preference that matters. 

Bryan

[cujobob]

Regarding the Rocket 850 sigs, Danny Richie did that crossover and he voices speakers to be completely neutral...so I do think most people won't consider that version to be bright ... The original 850s were, however.

Also, the only other thing about the Denon receiver is that while it's rated for 100 watts, most receivers don't come close to meeting their claimed ratings.  It has gotten better in recent years, though.

Good luck with your search...

[evan1]

I know someone who has the 850's . I am going to see if he can bring them by on Sunday so Bob can compare the three.

[BoB/335]

First off, apologies are in order. This has been a very stressful ordeal. I ordered an entire set-up when I should have just checked the towers first. Now I have a lot of money sitting here.

I ordered through the Factory Outlet Store which saved me some money but also gave me a 3-4 week wait. That just gave me time to constantly second guess my decision. This just gave me reson to ask more questions at the Axiom Forum. The got tired of me over there. Everytime someone mentioned that they were bright I would refer them to that post. They started giving me grief. Maybe I deserved it. I don't know.

The day my speakers were to be shipped I changed the order from their EP350 to an EP500. Caused another week delay. The day they were ready again I almost cancelled to get the current Rocket special.  I just freak out over that company's operation. (Yes I am very aware of what's going on there)

And now I sit here with these.

Sorry if I repeated myself with any of this. The point I was trying to make is that often times everyone misunderstands on forums. I am guilty of that in this forum so I would like to apologize if I have offended anyone here. I couldn't bare to get more grief here because of my stupidity.

I dabble in PA gear. I originally bout a powered mixer to drive a pair of speakers. The day I bought a separate amp to patch into the system there was a great deal of improvement. A sense of fullness or something. I would imagine the same thing with audio. I really wish that I could have at least gone for the 3808 with the pre-outs. But I couldn't and I'll just hope that this 2309 will do the job (at least for now).

This started out just to listen to the ST's. Bringing the M80's was an afterthought that Evan so graciously agreed to. I'll have to bring my receiver along and we'll see if we can get that in the mix to.

I'm pretty excited. It's great to read about these shootouts. I'll actually be part of one. Looking forward to it. (Just have to hope that Evan is not regretting this decision after reading all this crap  )

[evan1]

First off, apologies are in order. This has been a very stressful ordeal. I ordered an entire set-up when I should have just checked the towers first. Now I have a lot of money sitting here.

I ordered through the Factory Outlet Store which saved me some money but also gave me a 3-4 week wait. That just gave me time to constantly second guess my decision. This just gave me reson to ask more questions at the Axiom Forum. The got tired of me over there. Everytime someone mentioned that they were bright I would refer them to that post. They started giving me grief. Maybe I deserved it. I don't know.

The day my speakers were to be shipped I changed the order from their EP350 to an EP500. Caused another week delay. The day they were ready again I almost cancelled to get the current Rocket special.  I just freak out over that company's operation. (Yes I am very aware of what's going on there)

And now I sit here with these.

Sorry if I repeated myself with any of this. The point I was trying to make is that often times everyone misunderstands on forums. I am guilty of that in this forum so I would like to apologize if I have offended anyone here. I couldn't bare to get more grief here because of my stupidity.

I dabble in PA gear. I originally bout a powered mixer to drive a pair of speakers. The day I bought a separate amp to patch into the system there was a great deal of improvement. A sense of fullness or something. I would imagine the same thing with audio. I really wish that I could have at least gone for the 3808 with the pre-outs. But I couldn't and I'll just hope that this 2309 will do the job (at least for now).

This started out just to listen to the ST's. Bringing the M80's was an afterthought that Evan so graciously agreed to. I'll have to bring my receiver along and we'll see if we can get that in the mix to.

I'm pretty excited. It's great to read about these shootouts. I'll actually be part of one. Looking forward to it. (Just have to hope that Evan is not regretting this decision after reading all this crap  )

 I better change my address. Only kidding. Bring the Denon we can hook up a few different systems.

[BoB/335]

I went to the main page here and saw that you answered this thread. I was sweating it out. I'm really not a bad guy. (I've had to pay people in the past to say that but now they won't take any pay. They've also stopped saying that.  )

[Gord_Toronto]

Bob, Yeah right away at the beginning of the thread I could imagine how frustrated you must feel.  That is a quite a lot of money.  The whole audio field is quite subjective.  Speakers are what it is all about.  Just take it all a step at a time and enjoy the shoot out, I'm sure you will have a blast.  Wish I could be there with you. 

[zybar]

Here are some measurements of the Denon 2309CI as part of the very favorable review on Secrets of Home Theater and Hi-Fidelity:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/processor-and-receiver-reviews/receivers/denon-avr-2309ci-7.1-a/v-receiver_8.html

Looks pretty good for a mass market receiver and should not have any problems driving the SongTowers or the M80's.

George

[Tyson]

Bob, I've been down the road you are on right now.  Trust me, if you think the M80's are bright then do not listen to anyone that tries to tell you that they are not.  Cut your losses, return them, and get something that sounds more pleasing to you.  As mentioned in my previous post, a good alternative is to look at speakers that use different materials for their drivers.  Some people are just sensitive to the sound of metal drivers, while others are not.  Nothing wrong with that, but if you are one of those that is sensitive, it makes no sense to take advice from those that are not sensitive to it.