[Biscuit]

Did anyone see the A-Rod Katie Courec interview?  She asked point blank, did you ever take any steroids or performance enhancing drugs and A-Rod looked her in the eye and said "NO".  What a joke.  This guy is no better than any of the other cheats of the era, Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGuire, Canseco, Pettit, etc., etc...

I don't know if anyone heard the part about the second in command in the players union telling players, including A-Rod, they were going to get tested, before the test.  Even though players were supposedly warned, something like 103 of the 200 players tested failed the test.  Since perf enhancing drugs were so prevalent during this period, I think the record books should contain at least a short notation next to each record from the period referencing it as the steroid or pharmacy era.  The players were wrong because they took the drugs, but MLB was right there in bed with the players because they loved the attention and $$$ those falling homerun records brought to the sport. 

It's hard to say the batting records shouldn't count because those hitters were technically batting against juiced up pitchers, and vice versa.  I have one question about baseball cheats and the way they have been portrayed by fans and the media.  Why are baseball cheats held to a higher standard than other sports, especially NFL Football.   

Recently, Terry Bradshaw and several of the old Steelers (from superbowl teams) came forward and admitted steroid use was rampant in their playing days.  I believe Terry admitted to taking steroids.  I've also heard several older football players talk about steroid and speed use in the NFL through the years, and not just Lyle Alzado.  No one can argue that speed can enhance a foodball player's performance and amphetamines were very common in the NFL during the 70's and 80's (probably later but I am not certain).  Does anyone think LT only did drugs AFTER the games?  I don't recall hearing anyone complaining about LT or the football druggies, but I hear lots of people complaining about the Baseball cheaters, Bonds, A-Rod (now), McGuire, etc.,  I can't say i disagree with these people because I hate cheats, but why the double standard?  Why not the same level of indignation when it comes to Foodball, a sport where, arguably, steroids can provide an even greater competitive advantage than they can provide to a baseball player. 

Just wondering if anyone has a thought on this one.

[rydenfan]

Football has very strict testing policies and very harsh suspensions so I am not too sure what your point is 

[zybar]

Football has very strict testing policies and very harsh suspensions so I am not too sure what your point is 

I think Biscuit has a very accurate point.  Because baseball was late to testing and banning many performance enhancing drugs, they are absolutely the whipping boy for this issue.

Baseball's current drug policy is tougher, with longer punishments than the other major sports, yet they are constantly portrayed as being weak on the drug issue.

You also never had the general public get so up in arms when football players were going from being a 230lb lineman (in the mid to late 70's) to a 330lb  + lineman today.  Heck the average running back is almost as big or bigger than a lineman from just a few generations ago.  Do you think all that happened naturally?   

You also don't hear anybody screaming about any records that were produced while steroid use was rampant in the NFL in the late 70's, 80's and early 90's.  I have read articles were it was stated that maybe as high as 75% of the NFL was taking performance enhancing drugs at one point, so it certainly wasn't just the big linemen.

I love baseball and football, but baseball has been, and continues to be, treated very differently than the NFL when it comes to steroids and other drugs.  Heck, can you imagine a baseball player being suspended for steroid use and then being considering for the MVP award???  The public would go nuts, yet that is exactly what happened just a few years ago with Sean Merriman.

Anyway, I hope all the sports get things cleaned up and have a level playing field.

George



 

[rydenfan]

George, that makes more sense to me. I understand the point now. I do think there seems to be a historical aspect and America's past time, yada yada that goes along with baseball that seems to add even more to all of this.

I read a study in class once that like 80% of NBA players smoked weed on a daily to weekly basis. I believe if this were the case in baseball this would be made into a much bigger story.

[TF1216]

I do not think Andy Pettitte's name should be mentioned when steroid users come up.  He admitted to using HGH and was never considered a steroid user.  I am not an advocate of HGH or steroid use in any sport but I don't feel Andy Pettitte was receiving a competitve advantage by taking HGH a couple of times.

I am having a hard time now not pairing any super-athlete with steroid use.  My favorite athlete ever, Michael Jordan, grew considerably in size from his UNC days to his championship days. Do I think he took steroids?  No.  But now I question myself.

I follow natural bodybuilding and I have seen first-hand what physques can look like when people devote their lives to the sport.  This makes me ask how some NFL players obtain their amazing physiques.  Some have protuberant muscles unlike I have ever seen on a natural bodybuilder.  What do you guys think?

[John Casler]

Just as an FYI without judgement:

Anabolic Steroids have been available to athletes since the early 60's. 

I have read many accounts of some even using the compounds used for animals by veterinarians.

Who might have used them at those early dates is not known.

Additionally, there were OTC versions available in various potency's and effectiveness that have been available for the last 2 decades that can and will cause a failed drug test.

[satfrat]

Just as an FYI without judgement:

Anabolic Steroids have been available to athletes since the early 60's. 

I have read many accounts of some even using the compounds used for animals by veterinarians.

Who might have used them at those early dates is not known.

Additionally, there were OTC versions available in various potency's and effectiveness that have been available for the last 2 decades that can and will cause a failed drug test.

Is this how you got so big John,,, you juicin' too or do you leave the juice with your audio system?

[John Casler]

Just as an FYI without judgement:

Anabolic Steroids have been available to athletes since the early 60's. 

I have read many accounts of some even using the compounds used for animals by veterinarians.

Who might have used them at those early dates is not known.

Additionally, there were OTC versions available in various potency's and effectiveness that have been available for the last 2 decades that can and will cause a failed drug test.

Is this how you got so big John,,, you juicin' too or do you leave the juice with your audio system?

Actually I never had the opportunity or inclination, BUT . . . after passing 50, and now 60, I have been monitoring the health and quality of life implications of HRT (hormones replacement therapy).

Sad thing is, these Sports Stories create such a distorted perception of the compounds that it slows and reduces the acceptance in all areas.

While I have no particular judgement as to the "moral" aspect of their use in athletics or aesthetics, I am very interested in the exploration and research that could benefit myself and others (like yourself) as the Baby Boomers, move along that bridge to age related illnesses and reduced capacities.

I have and do use all the naturally occurring means to this end (nutrition, exercise, rest, etc) but there is little doubt in my mind that with a focused effort in the research dept, the application of various compounds can and will produce longevity and quality of life benefits.

While it is seldom pointed out, "insulin" is also an endocrine hormone (and assessed by some as the most anabolic in function) yet it is entirely normal for it to be used for medical and health purposes.

As an aside, I can assure you that athletes are in fact also abusing it for that purpose.

The endocrine system is a complex and interactive system, that will hold many keys to our longevity and health as we age.

I would hate to see this hysteria "spill" over to an out of proportion response to their productive implementation for useful, quality purpose.

[Rob Babcock]

Baseball's current drug policy is tougher, with longer punishments than the other major sports, yet they are constantly portrayed as being weak on the drug issue.

For much of that time the tests looked "optional" to the public.  MLB doesn't even publically mention the first positive a player gets IIRC.  And in theory they might have some harsh punishments but I don't recall seeing them used very often.  Sosa?  Bonds?  McGuire?  Some of those guys are facing jail time yet I haven't heard word one about baseball doing anything about them (note:  I know they'r retired, doing something might involve stripping them of stats or something).  What modern players are taking any genuine heat?  Who's actually being punished?  I don't follow bb but I haven't seen any mention in the news of any suspensions or fines.

You also never had the general public get so up in arms when football players were going from being a 230lb lineman (in the mid to late 70's) to a 330lb  + lineman today.  Heck the average running back is almost as big or bigger than a lineman from just a few generations ago.  Do you think all that happened naturally?   

Most of the doping in the NFL took place in more "innocent" times.  There was no internet to endlessly rehash things, no 24 hour news cycle.  The NFL was lucky to have the chance to clean up its act without the kind of scrutiny we see now.  Today I actually read about a bowler or something that's been caught doping!  Jeezus, who would've thought that was news 20 years ago?

Plus, I don't think we really knew back then just how big a deal it was, or how harmful they are in the long term.  

You also don't hear anybody screaming about any records that were produced while steroid use was rampant in the NFL in the late 70's, 80's and early 90's.  I have read articles were it was stated that maybe as high as 75% of the NFL was taking performance enhancing drugs at one point, so it certainly wasn't just the big linemen.

I don't think it was a good thing that they were doping, but many of the records simply aren't relevant.  Take sacks for instance- the NFL didn't even track that as a stat back when Gastineua (sp?) was playing.  There are some meaningful records from those days that are still standing, but not many.  Extending the season to 16 games is one reason not many of the older records still stand.  

I think there are other reasons there's not quite as much outrage about the NFL's drug use.  First off, it was a long time ago- you can't stay pissed off forever!  At some point you have to move on.  With MLB we're still mired in the scandal, and obviously plenty of current players either are doping or did in the past.  That's probably not nearly so much the case in the NFL.  Secondly players weren't making the kind of coin back in the 70's and early 80's that they are now.

Lastly I think it's sort of the straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back sort of thing.  We went thru this with NFL, swimming, cycling- people are just tired of it.  It's especially infuriating to the public when someone like A-Rod is shown to be a Grade A hypocrite.  I'm not saying it's fair, but you can only watch so many politicians, athletes, etc look you right in the eye and lie to you.

[Rob Babcock]

Actually I never had the opportunity or inclination, BUT . . . after passing 50, and now 60, I have been monitoring the health and quality of life implications of HRT (hormones replacement therapy).

Sad thing is, these Sports Stories create such a distorted perception of the compounds that it slows and reduces the acceptance in all areas.

While I have no particular judgement as to the "moral" aspect of their use in athletics or aesthetics, I am very interested in the exploration and research that could benefit myself and others (like yourself) as the Baby Boomers, move along that bridge to age related illnesses and reduced capacities.

I have and do use all the naturally occurring means to this end (nutrition, exercise, rest, etc) but there is little doubt in my mind that with a focused effort in the research dept, the application of various compounds can and will produce longevity and quality of life benefits.

While it is seldom pointed out, "insulin" is also an endocrine hormone (and assessed by some as the most anabolic in function) yet it is entirely normal for it to be used for medical and health purposes.

As an aside, I can assure you that athletes are in fact also abusing it for that purpose.

The endocrine system is a complex and interactive system, that will hold many keys to our longevity and health as we age.

I would hate to see this hysteria "spill" over to an out of proportion response to their productive implementation for useful, quality purpose.

You make an excellent point, John.  IIRC steroids were used after WWII to help survivors of the death camps to regenerate muscle.  I've been prescribed steroids to rehab my throat after a nasty bout of larengitous.  Obviously they have legit uses.  And hormone replacement probably will be a big deal going forward.  People shouldn't think of all those drugs as they do heroin or cocaine.  There are legitimate uses for some drugs that sports have banned. 

Even a bodybuilder should be able to use steroids, provided he's not competing against anyone who doesn't use them, and provided it's medically safe (I have no idea if there's a safe way to do it, just speaking hypothetically).

[satfrat]

Just as an FYI without judgement:

Anabolic Steroids have been available to athletes since the early 60's. 

I have read many accounts of some even using the compounds used for animals by veterinarians.

Who might have used them at those early dates is not known.

Additionally, there were OTC versions available in various potency's and effectiveness that have been available for the last 2 decades that can and will cause a failed drug test.

Is this how you got so big John,,, you juicin' too or do you leave the juice with your audio system?

Actually I never had the opportunity or inclination, BUT . . . after passing 50, and now 60, I have been monitoring the health and quality of life implications of HRT (hormones replacement therapy).

Sad thing is, these Sports Stories create such a distorted perception of the compounds that it slows and reduces the acceptance in all areas.

While I have no particular judgement as to the "moral" aspect of their use in athletics or aesthetics, I am very interested in the exploration and research that could benefit myself and others (like yourself) as the Baby Boomers, move along that bridge to age related illnesses and reduced capacities.

I have and do use all the naturally occurring means to this end (nutrition, exercise, rest, etc) but there is little doubt in my mind that with a focused effort in the research dept, the application of various compounds can and will produce longevity and quality of life benefits.

While it is seldom pointed out, "insulin" is also an endocrine hormone (and assessed by some as the most anabolic in function) yet it is entirely normal for it to be used for medical and health purposes.

As an aside, I can assure you that athletes are in fact also abusing it for that purpose.

The endocrine system is a complex and interactive system, that will hold many keys to our longevity and health as we age.

I would hate to see this hysteria "spill" over to an out of proportion response to their productive implementation for useful, quality purpose.

I hope you realize John that I was just joking with you. When you mentioned "insulin" tho, you hit home with me, my being a diabetic /just doing the pills at this point. I totally dread the day I end up having to use insulin so I have a hard time understanding how young men can dope themselves up while knowing full well that it can come back and bite them in the a$$ as they get older. Guess it must be the money and the pressure that comes from it.

Cheers,
Robin

[John Casler]

I hope you realize John that I was just joking with you. When you mentioned "insulin" tho, you hit home with me, my being a diabetic /just doing the pills at this point. I totally dread the day I end up having to use insulin so I have a hard time understanding how young men can dope themselves up while knowing full well that it can come back and bite them in the a$$ as they get older. Guess it must be the money and the pressure that comes from it.

Cheers,
Robin

Hi Robin,

Of course I did.

Sorry to hear about your insulin resistance, but glad it helped make the point.

The moral implications to using exogenous substances for some type of gain is too slippery a slope for me to broach.

My views are purely based on attempting to NOT be judgemental to fair play or moral aspects, but more to the human aspect of health, quality of life, and longevity.

Strangely enough there is such a strong relationship between hormones that they all affect each other and their functions.

HGH, IGF-1, DHEA, Testosterone, Insulin, etc, etc, are all inter-related in the body.   Additionally their relationships affect your health.

Your particular insensitivity, or reduced production of insulin could have many factors.  For example, a reduction in testosterone production can lead to fat accumulation, which leads to receptor site insensitivity to insulin.  So a little exogenous test, could possibly be beneficial to your situation.

There are many other contributing factors, such as diet, exercise, reduced muscle mass, etc, etc, so this is a complex issue.

Strangely enough if you want a "moral dilemma" I remember a few years ago when I was competing in Masters Track and Field, an Aussie Gal was on doctor ordered HRT, which included testosterone.

The Masters T&F organization banned her from competition even though she supplied the Doctor's script and documentations.

This makes "moral" judgements difficult, if not impossible.  Some were violently opposed to medical exceptions, while others supported her right to and obligation to maintain her health and still compete.

That is why I mentioned the "insulin" example.  There are many athletes who are insulin dependant, but this is a medication that CAN be seriously abused.  It is a little know fact that most all those "muscle head types" at the far extreme use (or abuse) insulin beyond any medically prescribed purpose.

[Biscuit]

Football has very strict testing policies and very harsh suspensions so I am not too sure what your point is 

I think Biscuit has a very accurate point.  Because baseball was late to testing and banning many performance enhancing drugs, they are absolutely the whipping boy for this issue.

Baseball's current drug policy is tougher, with longer punishments than the other major sports, yet they are constantly portrayed as being weak on the drug issue.

You also never had the general public get so up in arms when football players were going from being a 230lb lineman (in the mid to late 70's) to a 330lb  + lineman today.  Heck the average running back is almost as big or bigger than a lineman from just a few generations ago.  Do you think all that happened naturally?   

You also don't hear anybody screaming about any records that were produced while steroid use was rampant in the NFL in the late 70's, 80's and early 90's.  I have read articles were it was stated that maybe as high as 75% of the NFL was taking performance enhancing drugs at one point, so it certainly wasn't just the big linemen.

I love baseball and football, but baseball has been, and continues to be, treated very differently than the NFL when it comes to steroids and other drugs.  Heck, can you imagine a baseball player being suspended for steroid use and then being considering for the MVP award???  The public would go nuts, yet that is exactly what happened just a few years ago with Sean Merriman.

Anyway, I hope all the sports get things cleaned up and have a level playing field.

George



 

Thanks George for explaining my comments in a way everyone, or everyone, can understans.   

Please don't get me wrong, I am not taking the side of cheaters.  Baseball seems to have cleaned up its act and is coming down hard on performance enhancing drug users.  They will probably have to pull those balls out of their humidors (isn't that what they do in the thin air of Colorado to keep balls in the park?) or go back to those jacked up super-balls they were using a couple years ago if MLB wants to see homerun production.

Regarding the Andy Pettit fan, are you serios?  HGH is a performance enhancing drug.  It's the same thing Bonds took (cream and clear) and if you don't think Barry was cheating, maybe you'd like to take a poll and try to find one person who agrees with you.  Maybe Andy thought he was getting a B12 shot.  Wasn't that Roger Clemens' "explanation"?   

Either way, I am a huge fan of the pro sports and I understand that it's easier to try to hide behind a technicality than to admit one's hero cheated.  Clements is just as guilty as Bonds, who is just as guilty as Sosa, McGuire, Palmero, blah, blah, etc.   The point of my earlier post is simple.  These guys are guilty but they are no more guilty than our football heros from the 70's through the 90's (maybe the 60's through 2000's but I am not sure). 

I don't want to hear how players are innocent because the league didn't "technically" outlaw the use of certain drugs until...whatever.  To my knowledge, these drugs were illegal without a legal prescription - not the kind you get in Tiajuana.     Although I did score some excellent Viagra my last time in TJ...much better than the internet Paki-Viagra from last year (which I suspect was compressed drywall dust and road paint).   

NO NEED TO READ MY COMMENTS ABOVE, HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE:  it's difficult, but as a fan, I think it's time to leave the past behind.  Players took drugs to enhance their performance in NFL and MLB over the years.  Some of these players were my personal heros and it hurt me to hear they cheated.  The leagues (more recently baseball but for years Foodball did the same) turned a blind eye because, at least temporarily, PE drugs made the games more exciting.  And generated more $$$'s as a result.  Who doesn't want to see historic homerun records smashed, or see massive football players doing things thought to be impossible a decade earler?  I still want to see these things, but at least when they happen today, I hope they are a product of hard work/training methods, talent (genetics), and dedication, versus the kind of improvements someone cooks up in a laboratory. 

Going forward, the penalties should be stiff but I'm willing to leave the past behind and chalk up (at least in the case of baseball) the past decade or so to experience.  I'm less worried about what A-Rod said two or four years ago than I am about what he is doing today.  If he passes the recent tests and the tests are legit, I'm inclined to say, "play ball". 

That's all.

[TF1216]

Hey Biscuit,

Again, I don't condone the use of HGH in sports but it really isn't a performance enhancing drug like steroids (cream and the clear) is.  There has been multiple studies that attest to HGH doing nothing to improve one's athletic skills.  The only reason I bring this up again is because I feel the public is misinformed by the media to think that HGH is a steroid. 

I was curious what HGH was so I did a bit a reading online.  I learned a lot of fascinating facts about steroids as well as the cream and the clear.  What I found to be most fascinating is one guy, Patrick Arnold, brought all these products to the market with BALCO.  He invented androstenedione which was not banned by MLB when found in Mark McGwire's locker (andro).  He then went on to invent the cream and the clear declaring him to be "father" of prohormones.  If there are any interested parties, read his bio on wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Arnold

[soundbitten1]

I wonder how this will play out concerning the Hall Of Fame ? A-Rod has still many playing years left but if Bonds isn't voted in I can't see A-Rod getting in either .

[goldlizsts]

Frankly I see nothing shocking about it at all,,,, it's just more A-Rod being A-Fraud and it puts into percepective the records he accomplished in 2003 with Texas,, AL MVP, AL home run leader, league leader in both runs and slugging percentage,,, and all done while using steriods.

Just another worm in the Big Apple.

Cheers,
Robin

I just read somewhere of his stats for 2002 and 2003, with 2003 actually worse than 2002:
2002: .300 BA, 57 HRs, 142 RBIs, .623 SLG
2003: .298; 47; 118/.600.

Statistically speaking,  how should we explain away?  I'm not a die-hard baseball fan, but just looking at the numbers, I'm baffled.  Of course, statistics may be skewed because of other factors.

[macrojack]

If we stop kidding ourselves about these things being sports and acknowledge that they are businesses just like Enron and Goldman-Sachs, then everything they do makes more sense and instigates our sense of outrage in a more appropriate way.

Nothing sacred has been violated. This is just American capitalism doing its thing.

As long as money remains our top priority, all other values will suffer subjugation.

[TheChairGuy]

I just read somewhere of his stats for 2002 and 2003, with 2003 actually worse than 2002:
2002: .300 BA, 57 HRs, 142 RBIs, .623 SLG
2003: .298; 47; 118/.600.

Statistically speaking,  how should we explain away?  I'm not a die-hard baseball fan, but just looking at the numbers, I'm baffled.  Of course, statistics may be skewed because of other factors.

They only tested him/them in 2003...but it doesn't indicate whether prior tests were made.  Nor, how long A-Rod was juicing before 2003

Raw numbers have a tendency to fool and distract.....as we've all found as audiophools

John

[satfrat]

If we stop kidding ourselves about these things being sports and acknowledge that they are businesses just like Enron and Goldman-Sachs, then everything they do makes more sense and instigates our sense of outrage in a more appropriate way.

Nothing sacred has been violated. This is just American capitalism doing its thing.

As long as money remains our top priority, all other values will suffer subjugation.

I disagree bigtime. The fact A-Rod failed a steroid test in 2003 isn't as big a dea for me as it was A-Fraud's outright nationwide lie on TV about on his never using steroids. Unless you feel a man's word isn't "sacred" anymore macrojack then indeed A-Fraud needs to atone for blatantly lying to the American public on a national forum and violating their trust in him,,, if indeed there was any trust to begin with..

Cheers,
Robin

[maxwalrath]

If we stop kidding ourselves about these things being sports and acknowledge that they are businesses just like Enron and Goldman-Sachs, then everything they do makes more sense and instigates our sense of outrage in a more appropriate way.

Nothing sacred has been violated. This is just American capitalism doing its thing.

As long as money remains our top priority, all other values will suffer subjugation.

I disagree bigtime. The fact A-Rod failed a steroid test in 2003 isn't as big a dea for me as it was A-Fraud's outright nationwide lie on TV about on his never using steroids. Unless you feel a man's word isn't "sacred" anymore macrojack then indeed A-Fraud needs to atone for blatantly lying to the American public on a national forum and violating their trust in him,,, if indeed there was any trust to begin with..

Cheers,
Robin

I agree that integrity is big.  However, why did he cheat?  Money is certainly on the list.  Why did he lie about it?  Money again would be on the list (endorsements, salary).  Why did owners and Selig turn a blind eye?  Money.